permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

I might add perhaps that bones have a higher caloric value weight for weight 
than wood or coal. If we can't get the temperature in the oven high enough 
to bake bread we add a few bones and that always does the trick. It does not 
really matter that the bones are fresh either, they can be years old and 
lying wetly outside.
I am also fairly certain that the famous Chinese bone china was produced by 
using bones as fuel. I read somewhere that it was named like that because 
pieces of bone were added to the clay but this makes no sense since bone 
heated to a thousand degrees would be very brittle and soft and bone china 
is bone hard.
And also, it seems that the fuel used in the steam excavators that made the 
Suez canal consisted of coal and mummies by the hundreds of thousand. Not 
the rich Farao mummies but the ones of the common people where the dead were 
just wrapped up in cloth and dried out.
And to make it even more gruesome...After the battle of Waterloo the English 
collected the bodies of the fallen from all camps and turned them into 
fertilizer and it made England green.
John

> I think this is essential, that we cooperate and work together to free 
> ourselves from mined nutrients that are transported over long distances. 
> That should be a high priority on our list of things to do. One thing I 
> haven't done yet in my area is to test the rock dust that is available in 
> our waste stream, for nutrients. Like granite dust, dust from tile, etc. 
> Anybody have experience with that? I think we all should be tapping into 
> local waste streams for nutrients as priority (and I know most of us are to 
> some degree). We are documenting our waste stream bit by bit here in a 
> database so people start thinking with it a lot more and know where to go, 
> a group effort so that we're not doing double work. Thank you for sharing 
> about the chelation. I am on it! We have a biochar cooker that will cook 
> the bones very nicely.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
> To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 2:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
>
> I have to agree with Koreen, Scott, and Jason- there should be no need to 
> strip mine or any other sort of rampant cutting of the earth to supply 
> nutrients to our food crops, moreover pay for them. If your plants are 
> struggling in your native soils then maybe look at growing plants that are 
> more adapted to the parent material- right plant right place. You can only 
> change a soil so much...
>
> I have used rock dust in the past, Azomite in limited amounts. I never did 
> any comparisons but I guess I never found it that beneficial, or more to 
> the point worth the price ($ and environmental). I could always grow 
> pretty good food without it. maybe not 15+ on the brix scale, but good 
> enough to feed me and keep me healthy.
>
> I feel the same about most agricultural nutrients- better to make your 
> own. Eugenio Gras, again, has created a DIY method of making 
> biofertilizers, including soluble phosphate from bones and wood ash. To 
> quote another post I made to this exact listserve recently, on this exact 
> topic:
> "To create soluble phosphorus, Eugenio takes animal bones which are
> high in calcium and phosphorus, and burns them. The ash is phosphorus
> and mineral rich. “The industry charges you $50 a kilo for soluble
> phosphate and how much does a bone cost you? Every farmer has a cemetery
> and they are for free!” he says.
> Other wood ashes and rock dust can be added, to increase the
> diversity of minerals. The mixture undergoes lactic fermentation, which
> chelates the minerals. “Four thousand minerals have been classified.
> That’s the number that plants have had available for 400 million years.
> Then we come along and say ‘no, the only thing you need is NPK’. We now
> know it is not the amount of the mineral, but its presence that is
> important. We found when you bring rock dust into the biofertiliser, the
> diversity is much greater and you don’t need to buy in those expensive
> sulphates anymore. We also use small quantities. If you have grapes with
> a zinc deficiency, then you can add one kilogram of zinc to your
> starting ingredients. It will chelate and you will end up with
> biofertiliser enriched with zinc and an array of other minerals,”
> Eugenio says."
> full 
> article:http://www.acresaustralia.com.au/international/02/biofertilisers-and-plant-health-defence-is-the-best-form-of-attack/As 
> it says, Eugenio will use mined minerals in his brews (rock dust), but 
> only in
> limited amounts, and when applied as foliar or in fertigation, they go a
> long way. Not like ordering dump truck loads of rock dust and pouring
> it on your field
>
> I couldn't find many good pics of fosfito, phosphate recipe but here is 
> one: 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cicada/5060878353/in/set-72157625117735696. 
> He makes a rocket stove fire with the bones in the middle of the pile and 
> covers it with sawdust and places a chimney on top. Not sure the rest- 
> need to learn this!
>
> I manage several farms at the moment and have inherited trees in poor 
> health. I will use a limited amount of mined nutrients/amendments this 
> season (mostly humic acid) as I am not set up yet to make biofertilizers. 
> Next year I vow to free my farming from the cost of nutrients. This cost 
> is significant for fruit farmers, especially for citrus and avocados. If I 
> can make my own fertilizer from "free" materials then I am all for it.
>
> Loren Luyendyk
> 805-452-8249
> Permaculture Design and Education
> ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.globalpermaculture.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.com
>
>
> > From: fdnokes@hotmail.com
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
> >
> > I like the way your message refers to spirit
> > without which, nothing is worth doing.
> > I also like all of the information that I have gotten from your posts.
> > have never used phosphate... something held me back... seen people use 
> > it,
> > talk about, etc.
> > something held me back...
> > somehow, I should be able to find the resources in a more immediate way, 
> > it
> > seemed.
> > Thanks for expressing yourself freely and sharing.
> > Frances
> >
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Koreen Brennan
> > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 6:39 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
> >
> > as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage to
> > environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate - as 
> > bad
> > as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining practices of
> > whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream is the best. I
> > haven't had rock dust from various waste streams tested around here but
> > something on my list. As you say Lawrence, there is plenty of science out
> > there about the positive effects of rock minerals on plants.
> >
> > There is the soil science and then there are other factors. I always test
> > products and product combinations in my own garden for many reasons. The
> > main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing more with trees and
> > other things now. One major wild card factor is the spiritual 
> > relationship
> > between a person and their plants. And that sometimes supercedes all the
> > nutrients in the world. I've had people go into my "volunteer" garden 
> > area
> > and kill or stunt things just by being around them, and others go in and 
> > the
> > plant just leaps upward and outward. That is a fascinating study.
> >
> > Koreen Brennan
> >
> > www.growpermaculture.com
> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 9:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
> >
> > On 3/8/2013 12:38 AM, tanya wrote:
> >
> > > Engineers will prefer the Solomon approach, very linear and
> > > numbers-based, with detailed arguments for making each choice.
> >
> > Like hell they will. Soloman is no scientist; he is a snake oil
> > salesman, irresponsible and unconscientious. BS to sell his product.
> > I put him in the same category as vlad, equally bad.
> >
> > As for the effectiveness of quarry rock dusts and rock dust soil
> > amendments from a reputable dealer like Fertrell, rock phosphate,
> > greensand, azomite and other products, these materials feed the soil,
> > they feed the microorganisms that live in the soil that provide plant
> > nutrients and build overall soil quality for the long term. Rock powders
> > contribute to the production of "nutrient dense" food that contribute to
> > maximum human health. They also dramatically increase the flavor of
> > crops, apearance, size, nutritional quaity and keeping qualities. Use
> > quarry rock dusts freely after reading the MSDS on them to determine
> > their chemical makeup. Quarries are strictly EPA regulated and siltation
> > pond fines are clean.
> >
> > > and Solomon has a whole chapter about not relying on
> > > compost.
> >
> > Again, he has not the slightest clue what he is talking about. Pure
> > snake oil BS. Use as much compost as you are able to apply to your
> > garden or farm soil. Ignore what that senile greedy fool rants about and
> > get on with your work. He is a distraction and a bad influence on
> > gardeners and farmers who adhere to natural methods and materials.
> >
> > In Mexico his book would be recycled in the bathroom.
> >
> > > If anyone else has read either or both of these books, I'd be
> > > interested in hearing what you think. I've been thinking of getting my
> > > soil tested (at a community garden plot) and playing around with more
> > > than just the alfalfa pellets, nettle and comfrey teas, and compost
> > > I've been using.
> >
> > Forget Logan Labs and get your soil and plant tissue tests done by a
> > competent, reliable testing lab: Texas Plant and Soil Lab (TPSL).
> >
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