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  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
  • Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:29:50 -0800 (PST)

If you saw the damage phosphate mining does, I don't think that anybody would
think it is ok. A waste product of the mining is flouride - but an extra
toxic form of it. Instead of paying to dispose of this toxic substance, the
phosphate mines have a sweet deal - cities pay THEM for the flouride, to put
it in our water. We had a mafia election last election that booted out all
the county people who voted to remove flouride from our water (after a long
battle by citizen's groups), and they put some yes men in, illegally. There
are lawsuits, etc, gearing up. It's a dirty, mafia business. They're supposed
to clean the wetlands and other ecosystems that they destroy but don't do it
a lot of the time. They are polluting a very integrated, porous and delicate
ground water system here. The water flows for miles and miles underground
through caves, etc, in a karst system. And most of the phosphate is used to
keep toxic GMO conventional ag going full blast. Their
plants would keel over and die without it. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

I have to disagree about using strip mined rock phosphate.  The first ethic
of permaculture "care of the earth" is not vague and should be respected
regarding destructive practices to satisfy immediate needs. 

Permaculture is a solutions based design system and we should all be looking
for solutions to bad practices.  The guano mining of the past destroyed
miles of coral reefs, and bird habitat to provide agricultural additives and
explosives for our empire building.  The same arguments are used for
mountaintop removal to reach coal, "we need the energy to offset the cost of
petroleum".

"Necessity is the mother of "taking chances". Mark Twain

Scott Pittman 

"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
~Arundhati Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of venaurafarm
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 9:18 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

On 3/8/2013 9:39 AM, Koreen Brennan wrote:
> as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage
> to environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate

Use it anyway. You will do more good by using it and directly offsetting
their bad environmental practices with your positive effect
your garden has on the local and regional ecology. Do not deprive
yourself of rock or colloidal phosphate. Bone or feather meal is not an
acceptable alternative.

> - as bad as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining
> practices of whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream
> is the best. I haven't had rock dust from various waste streams
> tested around here but something on my list. As you say Lawrence,
> there is plenty of science out there about the positive effects of
> rock minerals on plants.

There certainly is.

> There is the soil science and then there are other factors.  I always
> test products and product combinations in my own garden for many
> reasons. The main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing
> more with trees and other things now. One major wild card factor is
> the spiritual relationship between a person and their plants. And
> that sometimes supercedes all the nutrients in the world. I've had

Yes, I go into my garden and listen quietly; the plants send this
message to me, "feed me more rock phosphate".

> people go into my "volunteer" garden area and kill or stunt things
> just by being around them, and others go in and the plant just leaps
> upward and outward.  That is a fascinating study.

Yes, vlad and solomon would have this effect.
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 11:33:37 2013
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:33:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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There's a lot of phosphate in pee. And in this town, we either ship our pee
(well, not MY pee :-) out of town on trucks (!) or inject it a couple
thousand feet under the earth. Jeez.  And then we strip mine and bring in
rock from our WATERSHED.  How stupid is that???!!!!!
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

I have to disagree about using strip mined rock phosphate.  The first ethic
of permaculture "care of the earth" is not vague and should be respected
regarding destructive practices to satisfy immediate needs. 

Permaculture is a solutions based design system and we should all be looking
for solutions to bad practices.  The guano mining of the past destroyed
miles of coral reefs, and bird habitat to provide agricultural additives and
explosives for our empire building.  The same arguments are used for
mountaintop removal to reach coal, "we need the energy to offset the cost of
petroleum".

"Necessity is the mother of "taking chances". Mark Twain

Scott Pittman 

"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
~Arundhati Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of venaurafarm
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 9:18 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

On 3/8/2013 9:39 AM, Koreen Brennan wrote:
> as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage
> to environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate

Use it anyway. You will do more good by using it and directly offsetting
their bad environmental practices with your positive effect
your garden has on the local and regional ecology. Do not deprive
yourself of rock or colloidal phosphate. Bone or feather meal is not an
acceptable alternative.

> - as bad as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining
> practices of whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream
> is the best. I haven't had rock dust from various waste streams
> tested around here but something on my list. As you say Lawrence,
> there is plenty of science out there about the positive effects of
> rock minerals on plants.

There certainly is.

> There is the soil science and then there are other factors.  I always
> test products and product combinations in my own garden for many
> reasons. The main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing
> more with trees and other things now. One major wild card factor is
> the spiritual relationship between a person and their plants. And
> that sometimes supercedes all the nutrients in the world. I've had

Yes, I go into my garden and listen quietly; the plants send this
message to me, "feed me more rock phosphate".

> people go into my "volunteer" garden area and kill or stunt things
> just by being around them, and others go in and the plant just leaps
> upward and outward.  That is a fascinating study.

Yes, vlad and solomon would have this effect.
_______________________________________________
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com

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>From venaurafarm@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 8 11:36:53 2013
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
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On 3/8/2013 11:03 AM, Scott Pittman wrote:
> I have to disagree about using strip mined rock phosphate. The first ethic
> of permaculture "care of the earth" is not vague and should be respected
> regarding destructive practices to satisfy immediate needs.

Organic/sustainable/natural gardeners and farmers should not be expected
to do without adequate and non-chemically-synthesized phosphate
soil amendments. Feather and bone meal are hard to get, expensive and
inferior to mined phosphate products. You disallow use of rock phosphate
evidently based on mining practices in Florida. Rock phosphate also
comes from North Carolina, Tennessee, Idaho and other locations around
the US. I am sure many of the sources other than the one in Florida may
possibly be using more environmentaly sound practices. Using
superphosphate is not an option for anyone. Even if you use the Florida
product (rock and colloidal) you will help offset the damage done by the
mining processes carried on in that state as opposed to doing nothing.
None of us will be able to change that industry one iota. The best we
can do is use their products effectively, in a natural setting. If it is
available to me, and it is through Fertrell and their dealers, I will
use it on a regular, as needed, basis. If you farm or garden for a
living you will need a quality, cost-effective source of natural phosphate.
Is there is a natural alternative to this product that is satisfactory
for a commercial market farmer? Very little of this product is needed,
even over the long term, so gardeners and most farmers are not going to
directly cause any significant amount of environmental damage by the
mining processes used.







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