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  • From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
  • Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:34:06 -0800

I'm a big fan of rock dust and remineralization. I've realized that much of
the benefit of organic matter is because it is tied to minerals and brings
them into the soil. Yes, OM provides carbon energy for soil microbes, who
then digest more OM -- and this releases minerals from the OM for plants to
use. And OM is the best thing there is for holding minerals in soil. But in
many cases there isn't an ideal proportion of minerals in the OM we import or
create, especially if it's from depleted soil (Wm. Albrecht and others
emphasize good Ca/Mg ratios and having lots of P to make other minerals
available). Since I live in northern Cal, we have two industries, grapes and
cannabis, that are very high value and thus growers can afford to invest huge
amounts in fertility management. and they really focus on, and have developed
great protocols for, mineral inputs (yes, it's still a lot of inputs).
Minerals are critical for high brix, and have a tremendous influence on the
quality of both those crops. The formulas they use are esoteric and involve
large quantities of phosphates and sea minerals (from kelp, seawater, azomite
and other dusts).

I've been reading Solomon's "Intelligent Gardener." He's always been a highly
opinionated curmudgeon, but he's grown a lot of plants, too, for decades. His
system works for him, and he's made an interesting transition from decades of
"OM cures everything" to, recently, "minerals are what you need." He does go
out on many limbs, though--he says stuff like, the death from disease of
Native Americans after European contact was because corn/beans/squash was not
nutrient dense, just a lot of carbs, so they weren't all that healthy. I'd
love to see some evidence, but it's an interesting idea (tho there were
plenty of Indians, like in the NW coast and Cali, who didn't live on C/B/S
and they still died, but . . . perhaps in smaller numbers). I've certainly
noticed a huge improvement in my health since I moved to mineral-rich,
nutrient dense veggies and nuts and away from meats, oils, and big doses of
carbs (35 point drop in blood pressure, half the cholesterol count). I'm
loading my soil with minerals.

I've seen the phosphate mines in Utah and Idaho. They're horrific, several
mile wide, open pit scars, so we do need to steward our phosphorus well.

One issue with minerals is that it takes a good soil test to really know what
to do. A one-size-fits-all fertilizer might load too much K in the soil, or
too much Mg, or not enough Ca or S, and those will all cause problems with
nutrition and growth. So you need a good soil test, and the ability to
understand CEC and a little arithmetic. Albrecht, and The Intelligent
Gardener both show how to do that. I think it's worth it. My recipe is, get
good OM levels, and then tune the minerals.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Mar 9, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Robert Waldrop wrote:

> Here in Oklahoma, we have some granite quarries where rock is mined. I
> contacted them and they said their dust would not be suitable because of
> the
> methods they used for mining the rock. They also said they got a lot of
> calls
> about rock dust.+
> Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
> http://www.ipermie.net -- How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sat, March 9, 2013 4:02:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> I think this is essential, that we cooperate and work together to free
> ourselves
> from mined nutrients that are transported over long distances. That should
> be a
> high priority on our list of things to do. One thing I haven't done yet in
> my
> area is to test the rock dust that is available in our waste stream, for
> nutrients. Like granite dust, dust from tile, etc. Anybody have experience
> with
> that? I think we all should be tapping into local waste streams for
> nutrients as
> priority (and I know most of us are to some degree). We are documenting our
> waste stream bit by bit here in a database so people start thinking with it
> a
> lot more and know where to go, a group effort so that we're not doing
> double
> work. Thank you for sharing about the chelation. I am on it! We have a
> biochar
> cooker that will cook the bones very nicely.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
> To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 2:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
>
> I have to agree with Koreen, Scott, and Jason- there should be no need to
> strip
> mine or any other sort of rampant cutting of the earth to supply nutrients
> to
> our food crops, moreover pay for them. If your plants are struggling in
> your
> native soils then maybe look at growing plants that are more adapted to the
> parent material- right plant right place. You can only change a soil so
> much...
>
> I have used rock dust in the past, Azomite in limited amounts. I never did
> any
> comparisons but I guess I never found it that beneficial, or more to the
> point
> worth the price ($ and environmental). I could always grow pretty good
> food
> without it. maybe not 15+ on the brix scale, but good enough to feed me
> and
> keep me healthy.
>
> I feel the same about most agricultural nutrients- better to make your own.
>
> Eugenio Gras, again, has created a DIY method of making biofertilizers,
> including soluble phosphate from bones and wood ash. To quote another post
> I
> made to this exact listserve recently, on this exact topic:
> "To create soluble phosphorus, Eugenio takes animal bones which are
> high in calcium and phosphorus, and burns them. The ash is phosphorus
> and mineral rich. “The industry charges you $50 a kilo for soluble
> phosphate and how much does a bone cost you? Every farmer has a cemetery
> and they are for free!” he says.
> Other wood ashes and rock dust can be added, to increase the
> diversity of minerals. The mixture undergoes lactic fermentation, which
> chelates the minerals. “Four thousand minerals have been classified.
> That’s the number that plants have had available for 400 million years.
> Then we come along and say ‘no, the only thing you need is NPK’. We now
> know it is not the amount of the mineral, but its presence that is
> important. We found when you bring rock dust into the biofertiliser, the
> diversity is much greater and you don’t need to buy in those expensive
> sulphates anymore. We also use small quantities. If you have grapes with
> a zinc deficiency, then you can add one kilogram of zinc to your
> starting ingredients. It will chelate and you will end up with
> biofertiliser enriched with zinc and an array of other minerals,”
> Eugenio says."
> full
> article:http://www.acresaustralia.com.au/international/02/biofertilisers-and-plant-health-defence-is-the-best-form-of-attack/As
> it says, Eugenio will use mined minerals in his brews (rock dust), but only
> in
>
> limited amounts, and when applied as foliar or in fertigation, they go a
> long way. Not like ordering dump truck loads of rock dust and pouring
> it on your field
>
> I couldn't find many good pics of fosfito, phosphate recipe but here is
> one:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cicada/5060878353/in/set-72157625117735696.
> He
> makes a rocket stove fire with the bones in the middle of the pile and
> covers it
> with sawdust and places a chimney on top. Not sure the rest- need to learn
> this!
>
> I manage several farms at the moment and have inherited trees in poor
> health. I
> will use a limited amount of mined nutrients/amendments this season
> (mostly
> humic acid) as I am not set up yet to make biofertilizers. Next year I vow
> to
> free my farming from the cost of nutrients. This cost is significant for
> fruit
> farmers, especially for citrus and avocados. If I can make my own
> fertilizer
> from "free" materials then I am all for it.
>
> Loren Luyendyk
> 805-452-8249
> Permaculture Design and Education
> ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.globalpermaculture.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.com
>
>
>> From: fdnokes@hotmail.com
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>>
>> I like the way your message refers to spirit
>> without which, nothing is worth doing.
>> I also like all of the information that I have gotten from your posts.
>> have never used phosphate... something held me back... seen people use it,
>> talk about, etc.
>> something held me back...
>> somehow, I should be able to find the resources in a more immediate way,
>> it
>> seemed.
>> Thanks for expressing yourself freely and sharing.
>> Frances
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Koreen Brennan
>> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 6:39 AM
>> To: permaculture
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>>
>> as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage to
>> environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate - as
>> bad
>> as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining practices of
>> whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream is the best. I
>> haven't had rock dust from various waste streams tested around here but
>> something on my list. As you say Lawrence, there is plenty of science out
>> there about the positive effects of rock minerals on plants.
>>
>> There is the soil science and then there are other factors. I always test
>> products and product combinations in my own garden for many reasons. The
>> main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing more with trees and
>> other things now. One major wild card factor is the spiritual relationship
>> between a person and their plants. And that sometimes supercedes all the
>> nutrients in the world. I've had people go into my "volunteer" garden area
>> and kill or stunt things just by being around them, and others go in and
>> the
>> plant just leaps upward and outward. That is a fascinating study.
>>
>> Koreen Brennan
>>
>> www.growpermaculture.com
>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 9:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>>
>> On 3/8/2013 12:38 AM, tanya wrote:
>>
>>> Engineers will prefer the Solomon approach, very linear and
>>> numbers-based, with detailed arguments for making each choice.
>>
>> Like hell they will. Soloman is no scientist; he is a snake oil
>> salesman, irresponsible and unconscientious. BS to sell his product.
>> I put him in the same category as vlad, equally bad.
>>
>> As for the effectiveness of quarry rock dusts and rock dust soil
>> amendments from a reputable dealer like Fertrell, rock phosphate,
>> greensand, azomite and other products, these materials feed the soil,
>> they feed the microorganisms that live in the soil that provide plant
>> nutrients and build overall soil quality for the long term. Rock powders
>> contribute to the production of "nutrient dense" food that contribute to
>> maximum human health. They also dramatically increase the flavor of
>> crops, apearance, size, nutritional quaity and keeping qualities. Use
>> quarry rock dusts freely after reading the MSDS on them to determine
>> their chemical makeup. Quarries are strictly EPA regulated and siltation
>> pond fines are clean.
>>
>>> and Solomon has a whole chapter about not relying on
>>> compost.
>>
>> Again, he has not the slightest clue what he is talking about. Pure
>> snake oil BS. Use as much compost as you are able to apply to your
>> garden or farm soil. Ignore what that senile greedy fool rants about and
>> get on with your work. He is a distraction and a bad influence on
>> gardeners and farmers who adhere to natural methods and materials.
>>
>> In Mexico his book would be recycled in the bathroom.
>>
>>> If anyone else has read either or both of these books, I'd be
>>> interested in hearing what you think. I've been thinking of getting my
>>> soil tested (at a community garden plot) and playing around with more
>>> than just the alfalfa pellets, nettle and comfrey teas, and compost
>>> I've been using.
>>
>> Forget Logan Labs and get your soil and plant tissue tests done by a
>> competent, reliable testing lab: Texas Plant and Soil Lab (TPSL).
>>
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