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  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
  • Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 01:53:22 -0800 (PST)

I use 10 to 1 water to pee. 9 to 1 is minimum dilution recommendation. And
I've made repeated daily applications in some cases with great results. I go
by observation - does that plant look a little peaked?  Pee is sterile, by
the way. I use it on greens, and wash them before I eat them (which I would
do anyway). I'm still here! :-)) 

I've revived plants from the dead with pee - have a tomato plant that is
going on two years old still going strong and producing, in a pot. It was
almost gone when I started application because it had been hidden under
another plant, and it bushed out aggressively and started fruiting. One of my
moringas was looking sickly, I used pee and it's thriving - deep green
leaves, healthy stems, grew four feet over winter season, and flowering. I
just put a few applications on when it first went in the ground (which perked
it right up), and donut mulched with manure and seaweed.  Pee is a daily
application (only because I pee every day) unlike aged manure. I like it
because it gives me an excuse to go out and spend time checking everything
out in the garden. I have a new sheet mulch system that is a little heavy on
the wood chips (it's what I had available to me), so the plants really
appreciate that bioavailable nutrition. I innoculate my compost pile with it
too, the garden doesn't need it every day, but you just gave me the idea of
trying daily application on a small area to see what happens. 

On the rock dust, I noticed the improved taste the first season. That was
finely powdered rock dust. The jury is still out on the course grain variety. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There's a lot of phosphate in pee. And in this town, we either ship our pee
> (well, not MY pee :-) out of town on trucks (!) or inject it a couple
> thousand feet under the earth. Jeez.  And then we strip mine and bring in
> rock from our WATERSHED.  How stupid is that???!!!!!
>

How much do you use? And at what dilution?

In the past I've used some at a community garden plot, but I used it
sparingly -- 1:5 dilution at least -- and ended up putting most of it
in the compost.

I've been wondering about using it on some container plants. Maybe
1:10? No more than once a month?

This time of year, most of the produce I'm picking is leafy greens, so
I don't want to use it directly on the garden. Mache, arugula, various
kales.
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 02:02:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
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I think this is essential, that we cooperate and work together to free
ourselves from mined nutrients that are transported over long distances. That
should be a high priority on our list of things to do. One thing I haven't
done yet in my area is to test the rock dust that is available in our waste
stream, for nutrients. Like granite dust, dust from tile, etc. Anybody have
experience with that? I think we all should be tapping into local waste
streams for nutrients as priority (and I know most of us are to some degree).
We are documenting our waste stream bit by bit here in a database so people
start thinking with it a lot more and know where to go, a group effort so
that we're not doing double work. Thank you for sharing about the chelation.
I am on it! We have a biochar cooker that will cook the bones very nicely.
 
 


________________________________
From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust


I have to agree with Koreen, Scott, and Jason- there should be no need to
strip mine or any other sort of rampant cutting of the earth to supply
nutrients to our food crops, moreover pay for them.  If your plants are
struggling in your native soils then maybe look at growing plants that are
more adapted to the parent material- right plant right place.  You can only
change a soil so much...

I have used rock dust in the past, Azomite in limited amounts.  I never did
any comparisons but I guess I never found it that beneficial, or more to the
point worth the price ($ and environmental).  I could always grow pretty
good food without it.  maybe not 15+ on the brix scale, but good enough to
feed me and keep me healthy.

I feel the same about most agricultural nutrients- better to make your own. 
Eugenio Gras, again, has created a DIY method of making biofertilizers,
including soluble phosphate from bones and wood ash.  To quote another post
I made to this exact listserve recently, on this exact topic:
"To create soluble phosphorus, Eugenio takes animal bones which are
high in calcium and phosphorus, and burns them. The ash is phosphorus
and mineral rich. “The industry charges you $50 a kilo for soluble
phosphate and how much does a bone cost you? Every farmer has a cemetery
and they are for free!” he says.
Other wood ashes and rock dust can be added, to increase the
diversity of minerals. The mixture undergoes lactic fermentation, which
chelates the minerals. “Four thousand minerals have been classified.
That’s the number that plants have had available for 400 million years.
Then we come along and say ‘no, the only thing you need is NPK’. We now
know it is not the amount of the mineral, but its presence that is
important. We found when you bring rock dust into the biofertiliser, the
diversity is much greater and you don’t need to buy in those expensive
sulphates anymore. We also use small quantities. If you have grapes with
a zinc deficiency, then you can add one kilogram of zinc to your
starting ingredients. It will chelate and you will end up with
biofertiliser enriched with zinc and an array of other minerals,”
Eugenio says."
full
article:http://www.acresaustralia.com.au/international/02/biofertilisers-and-plant-health-defence-is-the-best-form-of-attack/As
it says, Eugenio will use mined minerals in his brews (rock dust), but only
in
limited amounts, and when applied as foliar or in fertigation, they go a
long way.  Not like ordering dump truck loads of rock dust and pouring
it on your field

I couldn't find many good pics of fosfito, phosphate recipe but here is one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cicada/5060878353/in/set-72157625117735696.  He
makes a rocket stove fire with the bones in the middle of the pile and covers
it with sawdust and places a chimney on top.  Not sure the rest- need to
learn this!

I manage several farms at the moment and have inherited trees in poor
health.  I will use  a limited amount of mined nutrients/amendments this
season (mostly humic acid) as I am not set up yet to make biofertilizers. 
Next year I vow to free my farming from the cost of nutrients.  This cost is
significant for fruit farmers, especially for citrus and avocados.  If I can
make my own fertilizer from "free" materials then I am all for it.

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: fdnokes@hotmail.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0800
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> I like the way your message refers to spirit
> without which, nothing is worth doing.
> I also like all of the information that I have gotten from your posts.
> have never used phosphate... something held me back... seen people use it,
> talk about, etc.
> something held me back...
> somehow, I should be able to find the resources in a more immediate way, it
> seemed.
> Thanks for expressing yourself freely and sharing.
> Frances
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koreen Brennan
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 6:39 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage to
> environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate - as bad
> as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining practices of
> whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream is the best. I
> haven't had rock dust from various waste streams tested around here but
> something on my list. As you say Lawrence, there is plenty of science out
> there about the positive effects of rock minerals on plants.
>
> There is the soil science and then there are other factors.  I always test
> products and product combinations in my own garden for many reasons. The
> main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing more with trees and
> other things now. One major wild card factor is the spiritual relationship
> between a person and their plants. And that sometimes supercedes all the
> nutrients in the world. I've had people go into my "volunteer" garden area
> and kill or stunt things just by being around them, and others go in and
> the
> plant just leaps upward and outward.  That is a fascinating study.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 9:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> On 3/8/2013 12:38 AM, tanya wrote:
>
> > Engineers will prefer the Solomon approach, very linear and
> > numbers-based, with detailed arguments for making each choice.
>
> Like hell they will. Soloman is no scientist; he is a snake oil
> salesman, irresponsible and unconscientious. BS to sell his product.
> I put him in the same category as vlad, equally bad.
>
> As for the effectiveness of quarry rock dusts and rock dust soil
> amendments from a reputable dealer like Fertrell, rock phosphate,
> greensand, azomite and other products, these materials feed the soil,
> they feed the microorganisms that live in the soil that provide plant
> nutrients and build overall soil quality for the long term. Rock powders
> contribute to the production of "nutrient dense" food that contribute to
> maximum human health. They also dramatically increase the flavor of
> crops, apearance, size, nutritional quaity and keeping qualities. Use
> quarry rock dusts freely after reading the MSDS on them to determine
> their chemical makeup. Quarries are strictly EPA regulated and siltation
> pond fines are clean.
>
> > and Solomon has a whole chapter about not relying on
> > compost.
>
> Again, he has not the slightest clue what he is talking about. Pure
> snake oil BS. Use as much compost as you are able to apply to your
> garden or farm soil. Ignore what that senile greedy fool rants about and
> get on with your work. He is a distraction and a bad influence on
> gardeners and farmers who adhere to natural methods and materials.
>
> In Mexico his book would be recycled in the bathroom.
>
> > If anyone else has read either or both of these books, I'd be
> > interested in hearing what you think. I've been thinking of getting my
> > soil tested (at a community garden plot) and playing around with more
> > than just the alfalfa pellets, nettle and comfrey teas, and compost
> > I've been using.
>
> Forget Logan Labs and get your soil and plant tissue tests done by a
> competent, reliable testing lab: Texas Plant and Soil Lab (TPSL).
>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
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Here in Oklahoma, we have some granite quarries where rock is mined. I
contacted them and they said their dust would not be suitable because of the
methods they used for mining the rock. They also said they got a lot of
calls
about rock dust.+
Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
http://www.ipermie.net -- How to permaculture your urban lifestyle




________________________________
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 9, 2013 4:02:49 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust

I think this is essential, that we cooperate and work together to free
ourselves
from mined nutrients that are transported over long distances. That should be
a
high priority on our list of things to do. One thing I haven't done yet in my
area is to test the rock dust that is available in our waste stream, for
nutrients. Like granite dust, dust from tile, etc. Anybody have experience
with
that? I think we all should be tapping into local waste streams for nutrients
as
priority (and I know most of us are to some degree). We are documenting our
waste stream bit by bit here in a database so people start thinking with it a
lot more and know where to go, a group effort so that we're not doing double
work. Thank you for sharing about the chelation. I am on it! We have a
biochar
cooker that will cook the bones very nicely.




________________________________
From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust


I have to agree with Koreen, Scott, and Jason- there should be no need to
strip
mine or any other sort of rampant cutting of the earth to supply nutrients to
our food crops, moreover pay for them. If your plants are struggling in your
native soils then maybe look at growing plants that are more adapted to the
parent material- right plant right place. You can only change a soil so
much...

I have used rock dust in the past, Azomite in limited amounts. I never did
any
comparisons but I guess I never found it that beneficial, or more to the
point
worth the price ($ and environmental). I could always grow pretty good food
without it. maybe not 15+ on the brix scale, but good enough to feed me and
keep me healthy.

I feel the same about most agricultural nutrients- better to make your own.
Eugenio Gras, again, has created a DIY method of making biofertilizers,
including soluble phosphate from bones and wood ash. To quote another post I
made to this exact listserve recently, on this exact topic:
"To create soluble phosphorus, Eugenio takes animal bones which are
high in calcium and phosphorus, and burns them. The ash is phosphorus
and mineral rich. “The industry charges you $50 a kilo for soluble
phosphate and how much does a bone cost you? Every farmer has a cemetery
and they are for free!” he says.
Other wood ashes and rock dust can be added, to increase the
diversity of minerals. The mixture undergoes lactic fermentation, which
chelates the minerals. “Four thousand minerals have been classified.
That’s the number that plants have had available for 400 million years.
Then we come along and say ‘no, the only thing you need is NPK’. We now
know it is not the amount of the mineral, but its presence that is
important. We found when you bring rock dust into the biofertiliser, the
diversity is much greater and you don’t need to buy in those expensive
sulphates anymore. We also use small quantities. If you have grapes with
a zinc deficiency, then you can add one kilogram of zinc to your
starting ingredients. It will chelate and you will end up with
biofertiliser enriched with zinc and an array of other minerals,”
Eugenio says."
full
article:http://www.acresaustralia.com.au/international/02/biofertilisers-and-plant-health-defence-is-the-best-form-of-attack/As
it says, Eugenio will use mined minerals in his brews (rock dust), but only
in

limited amounts, and when applied as foliar or in fertigation, they go a
long way. Not like ordering dump truck loads of rock dust and pouring
it on your field

I couldn't find many good pics of fosfito, phosphate recipe but here is one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cicada/5060878353/in/set-72157625117735696. He
makes a rocket stove fire with the bones in the middle of the pile and covers
it
with sawdust and places a chimney on top. Not sure the rest- need to learn
this!

I manage several farms at the moment and have inherited trees in poor health.
I
will use a limited amount of mined nutrients/amendments this season (mostly
humic acid) as I am not set up yet to make biofertilizers. Next year I vow
to
free my farming from the cost of nutrients. This cost is significant for
fruit
farmers, especially for citrus and avocados. If I can make my own fertilizer
from "free" materials then I am all for it.

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: fdnokes@hotmail.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0800
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> I like the way your message refers to spirit
> without which, nothing is worth doing.
> I also like all of the information that I have gotten from your posts.
> have never used phosphate... something held me back... seen people use it,
> talk about, etc.
> something held me back...
> somehow, I should be able to find the resources in a more immediate way, it
> seemed.
> Thanks for expressing yourself freely and sharing.
> Frances
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koreen Brennan
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 6:39 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> as a note, the phosphate mines in Florida are doing horrible damage to
> environments. Not even remotely sustainable to use mined phosphate - as bad
> as coal mining, etc. It's a good thing to check into mining practices of
> whatever rock minerals you get. Using the waste stream is the best. I
> haven't had rock dust from various waste streams tested around here but
> something on my list. As you say Lawrence, there is plenty of science out
> there about the positive effects of rock minerals on plants.
>
> There is the soil science and then there are other factors. I always test
> products and product combinations in my own garden for many reasons. The
> main way I've done it is with seedlings but I'm doing more with trees and
> other things now. One major wild card factor is the spiritual relationship
> between a person and their plants. And that sometimes supercedes all the
> nutrients in the world. I've had people go into my "volunteer" garden area
> and kill or stunt things just by being around them, and others go in and
> the
> plant just leaps upward and outward. That is a fascinating study.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 9:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Rock Dust
>
> On 3/8/2013 12:38 AM, tanya wrote:
>
> > Engineers will prefer the Solomon approach, very linear and
> > numbers-based, with detailed arguments for making each choice.
>
> Like hell they will. Soloman is no scientist; he is a snake oil
> salesman, irresponsible and unconscientious. BS to sell his product.
> I put him in the same category as vlad, equally bad.
>
> As for the effectiveness of quarry rock dusts and rock dust soil
> amendments from a reputable dealer like Fertrell, rock phosphate,
> greensand, azomite and other products, these materials feed the soil,
> they feed the microorganisms that live in the soil that provide plant
> nutrients and build overall soil quality for the long term. Rock powders
> contribute to the production of "nutrient dense" food that contribute to
> maximum human health. They also dramatically increase the flavor of
> crops, apearance, size, nutritional quaity and keeping qualities. Use
> quarry rock dusts freely after reading the MSDS on them to determine
> their chemical makeup. Quarries are strictly EPA regulated and siltation
> pond fines are clean.
>
> > and Solomon has a whole chapter about not relying on
> > compost.
>
> Again, he has not the slightest clue what he is talking about. Pure
> snake oil BS. Use as much compost as you are able to apply to your
> garden or farm soil. Ignore what that senile greedy fool rants about and
> get on with your work. He is a distraction and a bad influence on
> gardeners and farmers who adhere to natural methods and materials.
>
> In Mexico his book would be recycled in the bathroom.
>
> > If anyone else has read either or both of these books, I'd be
> > interested in hearing what you think. I've been thinking of getting my
> > soil tested (at a community garden plot) and playing around with more
> > than just the alfalfa pellets, nettle and comfrey teas, and compost
> > I've been using.
>
> Forget Logan Labs and get your soil and plant tissue tests done by a
> competent, reliable testing lab: Texas Plant and Soil Lab (TPSL).
>
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>From lfljvenaura@gmail.com Sat Mar 9 12:27:18 2013
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From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 12:26:55 -0500
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Subject: [permaculture] OT: Hugo Chavez, R.I.P.,
a true Venezuelan hero.| hilarious spoof of bad AP obit.
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Hugo Chavez, R.I.P., a true Venezuelan hero.

| hilarious spoof of bad AP obit.

AP: Chavez made "meager" gains, only reduced poverty, didn't build the
world's tallest building - Boing Boing
http://boingboing.net/2013/03/08/ap-chavez-made-meager-gai.html

Associated Press business reporter Pamela Simpson wrote a terrible
obit<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=173521347>for
Huge Chavez, writing:
"Chavez invested Venezuela’s oil wealth into social programs including
state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families,
free health clinics and education programs. But those gains were meager
compared with the spectacular construction projects
that oil riches spurred in glittering Middle Eastern cities, including the
world’s tallest building in Dubai and plans for branches
of the Louvre and Guggenheim museums in Abu Dhabi"

Jim Naureckas has an appropriately scathing response::
"In case you're curious about what kind of results this kooky agenda had,
here's a chart (NACLA,
10/8/12) based on World Bank poverty stats–showing the proportion of
Venezuelans living on less than
$2 a day falling from 35 percent to 13 percent over three years. (For
comparison purposes, there's
a similar stat for Brazil, which made substantial but less dramatic
progress against poverty over the same time period.)
Of course, during this time, the number of Venezuelans living in the
world's tallest building went from 0 percent to 0 percent,
while the number of copies of the Mona Lisa remained flat, at none. So you
have to say that Chavez's presidency was overall
pretty disappointing–at least by AP's standards."

AP: Chavez Wasted His Money on Healthcare When He Could Have Built Gigantic
Skyscrapers
http://www.fair.org/blog/2013/03/06/ap-chavez-wasted-his-money-on-healthcare-when-he-could-have-built-gigantic-skyscrapers/

FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting — The national media watch group
http://fair.org/




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