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[bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>]

That was all very interesting Susan.  I didn't know nuch of what you wrote.  
'just a curiosity about the obvious.  The groups are not large.  How do they 
keep new bloodlines?.  Do people come from state to state or whatever to date 
and marry?

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--- On Thu, 12/4/08, sjc <indexer AT fairpoint.net> wrote:

> From: sjc <indexer AT fairpoint.net>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] was It's almost over, now wending to Amish 
> response to aggression
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:42 PM
> EarthNSky wrote:
> >
> >  I meant that our species has a built in capability
> for aggression,
> > for violence, and that often leads to warring.
> >   
> With that statement I can totally agree.
> 
> > I would venture to guess that even among a peaceful
> group like the Amish
> > that young men might resort to a fistfight over a
> young lady.  The
> > behavior of those during Rumschpringe is often
> different than their
> > behavior at home.
> >
> >   
> Possibly.  I'm sure it's happened.  Not sure about
> all these 
> 'documentaries' I hear about (maybe I need to start
> watching TV?)  But 
> in any case, the past 30 years or so, since drugs have been
> ubiquitous, 
> have forever changed many, especially young, populations. 
> I've heard 
> some real horror stories, and since each group (almost no
> hierarchy in 
> Anabaptist groups, usually 2 preachers, a 'new' and
> a 'main' preacher, 
> all chosen by lot, and 3 churches to a bishop, who is also
> 'main' 
> preacher for one of the 3 churches) is it's own
> 'boss' there are lots of 
> usus\ally small variances in the tolerance levels from
> one group to 
> another.  In the part of the country where I grew up, once
> you joined 
> church, no more rumschpringge, period, because at the least
> there were 
> usually musical instruments, or in that day I grew up,
> battery 
> recordplayers. 
> 
> In some areas alcohol was tolerated, but usage usually
> moderated after 
> the first time or so.   You've maybe never tried it :-)
> , but getting up 
> for prayer at 3AM (might not always be the case, but almost
> always on 
> the day after a rumschpringge), being reminded in front of
> your siblings 
> and the hired hand that meekness and saying 'good
> morning' are pleasant 
> habits in a family setting,  milking (by hand)a dozen or so
> cows, then 
> doing a couple of hours' worth of hot field work, then
> meeting a demand 
> performance at the breakfast table, verbal participation
> and consumption 
> of food required, all with a humongous hangover, it's
> not all that much 
> fun.  Very likely company is present, as these are
> gregarious people, so 
> you are observed by many.  There are sure to be 20 or more
> extra people 
> for dinner (noonday meal), with a hour or so of singing
> before you go 
> back to the field.  No cross words will be spoken to you,
> but you will 
> have many sly questions and reminders about proper behavior
> and maybe a 
> whispered invitation to discuss anything that's on your
> mind while you 
> work along a hot, sweaty horse all afternoon.  You can be
> assured in 
> such a case that the day's work will not end early, it
> having been 
> carefully planned.  Somewhere in the middle of the day, you
> keenly 
> remember how much fun you yourself used to have at a
> "Monday 
> get-together", laughing and talking and singing.  
> Supper is late.  And 
> mandatory.  Furthermore, since you undoubtedly slipped up
> somewhere 
> through the day, you'll like be invited to wash supper
> dishes (male or 
> female) because "Mom's had a big day getting
> everything around; she's 
> tired."  If you're really unfortunate, you might
> belong to a household 
> that sometimes rotates leading evening Bible study and
> prayer; if so, 
> it's surely your day to do it.  All are sitting there
> waiting for you to 
> commence, Bibles in their laps, bright-eyed, not looking
> tired at all.  
> And all this is after you survived driving a chop buggy
> (nobody's dumb 
> enough to let you take the good buggy to rumschpringge)
> drunk behind a 
> horse that wasn't drunk, who knew how soon he wanted to
> get home....an 
> experience in itself, not to mention the tractor trailers
> on the highway 
> that has to be crossed.  Once is enough for most people. 
> The best part 
> of all is that it will never, by anyone but maybe your
> buddies, be 
> mentioned again.
> 
> So even though these things may happen, they have a way of
> snuffing 
> themselves out, or did.  I really haven't kept up with
> the recent 
> details since I'm gone.  Things certainly made a
> serious turn when drugs 
> came on the scene.  Rumschpringge was, historically, seen
> as a time when 
> a kid, before joining church, could 'feel his/her
> oats' before joining 
> church and being for life restricted from the world.  There
> does, 
> especially in the PA and northern OH groups, seem to be
> more control 
> exercised over things now; seems like the big problem went
> from east 
> toward the west.    I'd say this is where there will be
> some kind of 
> change in the next decade or so, but actually haven't
> talked to any of 
> the people who are having trouble in their communities,
> just know what 
> I've seen go by me on paper, mostly, which is quite a
> bit but certainly 
> not all!  Now that I think about it I haven't heard the
> Dutch term used 
> for some years by the IN groups, only the English
> "running around".  If 
> I can remember, I'll check that out when next I see
> someone who'd know.....
> 
> SJ
> >>> I think the Mennonites/Anabaptists/Amish are
> an example of a
> >>> peaceful group that is not wiped out because
> it exists within an
> >>> insulated environment in a country where they
> have constitutional
> >>> protection.  Inside of the USA might be the
> only place in the world
> >>> where such a group can survive.
> >>>
> >>>       
> >> This is oft-stated as a "fact". 
> However, they do not see it so.
> >> They have moved away from aggressors so many times
> that they see
> >> themselves as a people on the move.  In this
> country, beginning in
> >> the late sixties, and accelerating through the
> seventiess and
> >> continuing now is a large migration of Amish and
> conservative
> >> Mennonites to Central America, particularly
> Belize, where they are
> >> currently courted by the government (don't
> have to have photo ids,
> >> their farming methods are advanced, and
> attainable, compared to local
> >> historical methods, they provide no drain on the
> educational system,
> >> etc).  Here they have been badgered (over
> schooling, social security,
> >> plenty) in many places until it's actually
> embarrassing, at least to
> >> me, to think that my country behaves so.  They
> are, from their point
> >> of view, being forced out.
> >>     
> >
> > Thanks for making me realize this. I should have
> thought about that.  I
> > don't think I really meant it as fact, but I see
> that I implied it.
> > There are even plenty of Mennonites in GA who came
> here not only for the
> > land, but for the schooling freedom.
> >
> > I would hazard a guess, albeit
> >   
> >> only a guess, that it makes the counting a little
> more difficult,
> >> too, as they often make themselves difficult to
> quantify: easier to
> >> stay under the radar to be left alone.
> >>     
> >
> > Smart move.
> >
> >
> >   
> >> From our (world) point of view, all this moving
> looks like is that
> >> they are going from the frying pan to the fire,
> but from their point
> >> of view, it's the frying pan until it tips
> over, then a new frying
> >> pan......all of this is to them simply the way it
> has been since the
> >> followers of Zwingli were forced to meet in barns
> and caves in the
> >> 1500s:  the norm.
> >>     
> >
> >
> > You are absolutely right.  I stand corrected.
> > I have clipped the remainder of your post, but I bow
> to it's truth and
> > it gives me a lot to think about.  I see the point
> that you and Lynn are
> > making about "warring species"(I wish I had
> not said that that way), I
> > just hope that you can understand my belief that homo
> sapiens, as
> > individuals are a violent, aggressive species.  People
> should be able to
> > play carom(and gosh I haven't heard any mention of
> that game in 15
> > years!) without being slaughtered...
> >
> > Bev
> >
> >   
> >
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> >
> >
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> >   
> 
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