Homestead mailing list

[sjc <indexer AT fairpoint.net>]

EarthNSky wrote:
>  I meant that our species has a built in capability for aggression,
> for violence, and that often leads to warring.
>   
With that statement I can totally agree.

> I would venture to guess that even among a peaceful group like the Amish
> that young men might resort to a fistfight over a young lady.  The
> behavior of those during Rumschpringe is often different than their
> behavior at home.
>
>   
Possibly.  I'm sure it's happened.  Not sure about all these 
'documentaries' I hear about (maybe I need to start watching TV?)  But 
in any case, the past 30 years or so, since drugs have been ubiquitous, 
have forever changed many, especially young, populations.  I've heard 
some real horror stories, and since each group (almost no hierarchy in 
Anabaptist groups, usually 2 preachers, a 'new' and a 'main' preacher, 
all chosen by lot, and 3 churches to a bishop, who is also 'main' 
preacher for one of the 3 churches) is it's own 'boss' there are lots of 
usus\ally small variances in the tolerance levels from one group to 
another.  In the part of the country where I grew up, once you joined 
church, no more rumschpringge, period, because at the least there were 
usually musical instruments, or in that day I grew up, battery 
recordplayers. 

In some areas alcohol was tolerated, but usage usually moderated after 
the first time or so.   You've maybe never tried it :-) , but getting up 
for prayer at 3AM (might not always be the case, but almost always on 
the day after a rumschpringge), being reminded in front of your siblings 
and the hired hand that meekness and saying 'good morning' are pleasant 
habits in a family setting,  milking (by hand)a dozen or so cows, then 
doing a couple of hours' worth of hot field work, then meeting a demand 
performance at the breakfast table, verbal participation and consumption 
of food required, all with a humongous hangover, it's not all that much 
fun.  Very likely company is present, as these are gregarious people, so 
you are observed by many.  There are sure to be 20 or more extra people 
for dinner (noonday meal), with a hour or so of singing before you go 
back to the field.  No cross words will be spoken to you, but you will 
have many sly questions and reminders about proper behavior and maybe a 
whispered invitation to discuss anything that's on your mind while you 
work along a hot, sweaty horse all afternoon.  You can be assured in 
such a case that the day's work will not end early, it having been 
carefully planned.  Somewhere in the middle of the day, you keenly 
remember how much fun you yourself used to have at a "Monday 
get-together", laughing and talking and singing.   Supper is late.  And 
mandatory.  Furthermore, since you undoubtedly slipped up somewhere 
through the day, you'll like be invited to wash supper dishes (male or 
female) because "Mom's had a big day getting everything around; she's 
tired."  If you're really unfortunate, you might belong to a household 
that sometimes rotates leading evening Bible study and prayer; if so, 
it's surely your day to do it.  All are sitting there waiting for you to 
commence, Bibles in their laps, bright-eyed, not looking tired at all.  
And all this is after you survived driving a chop buggy (nobody's dumb 
enough to let you take the good buggy to rumschpringge) drunk behind a 
horse that wasn't drunk, who knew how soon he wanted to get home....an 
experience in itself, not to mention the tractor trailers on the highway 
that has to be crossed.  Once is enough for most people.  The best part 
of all is that it will never, by anyone but maybe your buddies, be 
mentioned again.

So even though these things may happen, they have a way of snuffing 
themselves out, or did.  I really haven't kept up with the recent 
details since I'm gone.  Things certainly made a serious turn when drugs 
came on the scene.  Rumschpringge was, historically, seen as a time when 
a kid, before joining church, could 'feel his/her oats' before joining 
church and being for life restricted from the world.  There does, 
especially in the PA and northern OH groups, seem to be more control 
exercised over things now; seems like the big problem went from east 
toward the west.    I'd say this is where there will be some kind of 
change in the next decade or so, but actually haven't talked to any of 
the people who are having trouble in their communities, just know what 
I've seen go by me on paper, mostly, which is quite a bit but certainly 
not all!  Now that I think about it I haven't heard the Dutch term used 
for some years by the IN groups, only the English "running around".  If 
I can remember, I'll check that out when next I see someone who'd know.....

SJ
> > > I think the Mennonites/Anabaptists/Amish are an example of a
> > > peaceful group that is not wiped out because it exists within an
> > > insulated environment in a country where they have constitutional
> > > protection.  Inside of the USA might be the only place in the world
> > > where such a group can survive.
> > >
> > >       
> > This is oft-stated as a "fact".  However, they do not see it so.
> > They have moved away from aggressors so many times that they see
> > themselves as a people on the move.  In this country, beginning in
> > the late sixties, and accelerating through the seventiess and
> > continuing now is a large migration of Amish and conservative
> > Mennonites to Central America, particularly Belize, where they are
> > currently courted by the government (don't have to have photo ids,
> > their farming methods are advanced, and attainable, compared to local
> > historical methods, they provide no drain on the educational system,
> > etc).  Here they have been badgered (over schooling, social security,
> > plenty) in many places until it's actually embarrassing, at least to
> > me, to think that my country behaves so.  They are, from their point
> > of view, being forced out.
> >     
>
> Thanks for making me realize this. I should have thought about that.  I
> don't think I really meant it as fact, but I see that I implied it.
> There are even plenty of Mennonites in GA who came here not only for the
> land, but for the schooling freedom.
>
> I would hazard a guess, albeit
>   
> > only a guess, that it makes the counting a little more difficult,
> > too, as they often make themselves difficult to quantify: easier to
> > stay under the radar to be left alone.
> >     
>
> Smart move.
>
>
>   
> > From our (world) point of view, all this moving looks like is that
> > they are going from the frying pan to the fire, but from their point
> > of view, it's the frying pan until it tips over, then a new frying
> > pan......all of this is to them simply the way it has been since the
> > followers of Zwingli were forced to meet in barns and caves in the
> > 1500s:  the norm.
> >     
>
>
> You are absolutely right.  I stand corrected.
> I have clipped the remainder of your post, but I bow to it's truth and
> it gives me a lot to think about.  I see the point that you and Lynn are
> making about "warring species"(I wish I had not said that that way), I
> just hope that you can understand my belief that homo sapiens, as
> individuals are a violent, aggressive species.  People should be able to
> play carom(and gosh I haven't heard any mention of that game in 15
> years!) without being slaughtered...
>
> Bev
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 5:41 PM
>
>