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  • From: EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>
  • To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] was It's almost over, now wending to Amish response to aggression
  • Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:07:48 -0500



sjc wrote:

Bev, I don't think any of us are trying to say humans don't war more
than is good for them, or that any given population is not capable
of warring. The point I was trying to make is that since there have
been, and are, large groups of people who have existed for hundreds,
and in some cases, thousands of years, without warring, it seems to
me that the urge to war isn't actually inherent in the species,
otherwise it wouldn't be so 'easy' to overide. That's certainly not
to say that some groups don't have such a propensity, but rather that
I don't see how it could be a species-wide trait, since so many have
not exhibited it.

Warring is not the same, in my thinking, as violence. warring involves
multiple people, violence can be individual. I think you believe that,
too. I meant that our species has a built in capability for aggression,
for violence, and that often leads to warring.
I would venture to guess that even among a peaceful group like the Amish
that young men might resort to a fistfight over a young lady. The
behavior of those during Rumschpringe is often different than their
behavior at home.

I think the Mennonites/Anabaptists/Amish are an example of a
peaceful group that is not wiped out because it exists within an
insulated environment in a country where they have constitutional
protection. Inside of the USA might be the only place in the world
where such a group can survive.

This is oft-stated as a "fact". However, they do not see it so.
They have moved away from aggressors so many times that they see
themselves as a people on the move. In this country, beginning in
the late sixties, and accelerating through the seventiess and
continuing now is a large migration of Amish and conservative
Mennonites to Central America, particularly Belize, where they are
currently courted by the government (don't have to have photo ids,
their farming methods are advanced, and attainable, compared to local
historical methods, they provide no drain on the educational system,
etc). Here they have been badgered (over schooling, social security,
plenty) in many places until it's actually embarrassing, at least to
me, to think that my country behaves so. They are, from their point
of view, being forced out.

Thanks for making me realize this. I should have thought about that. I
don't think I really meant it as fact, but I see that I implied it.
There are even plenty of Mennonites in GA who came here not only for the
land, but for the schooling freedom.

I would hazard a guess, albeit
only a guess, that it makes the counting a little more difficult,
too, as they often make themselves difficult to quantify: easier to
stay under the radar to be left alone.

Smart move.



From our (world) point of view, all this moving looks like is that
they are going from the frying pan to the fire, but from their point
of view, it's the frying pan until it tips over, then a new frying
pan......all of this is to them simply the way it has been since the
followers of Zwingli were forced to meet in barns and caves in the
1500s: the norm.


You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.
I have clipped the remainder of your post, but I bow to it's truth and
it gives me a lot to think about. I see the point that you and Lynn are
making about "warring species"(I wish I had not said that that way), I
just hope that you can understand my belief that homo sapiens, as
individuals are a violent, aggressive species. People should be able to
play carom(and gosh I haven't heard any mention of that game in 15
years!) without being slaughtered...

Bev

--
“Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to
hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda




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