Homestead mailing list

[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

sjc wrote:

> Bev, I don't think any of us are trying to say humans don't war more
>  than is good for them, or that any given population is not capable
> of warring.   The point I was trying to make is that since there have
> been, and are, large groups of people who have existed for hundreds,
> and in some cases, thousands of years, without warring, it seems to
> me that the urge to war isn't actually inherent in the species,
> otherwise it wouldn't be so 'easy' to overide.   That's certainly not
> to say that some groups don't have such a propensity, but rather that
> I don't see how it could be a species-wide trait, since so many have
> not exhibited it.

Warring is not the same, in my thinking, as violence.  warring involves
multiple people, violence can be individual.  I think you believe that,
too. I meant that our species has a built in capability for aggression,
for violence, and that often leads to warring.
I would venture to guess that even among a peaceful group like the Amish
that young men might resort to a fistfight over a young lady.  The
behavior of those during Rumschpringe is often different than their
behavior at home.

> > I think the Mennonites/Anabaptists/Amish are an example of a
> > peaceful group that is not wiped out because it exists within an
> > insulated environment in a country where they have constitutional
> > protection.  Inside of the USA might be the only place in the world
> > where such a group can survive.
> This is oft-stated as a "fact".  However, they do not see it so.
> They have moved away from aggressors so many times that they see
> themselves as a people on the move.  In this country, beginning in
> the late sixties, and accelerating through the seventiess and
> continuing now is a large migration of Amish and conservative
> Mennonites to Central America, particularly Belize, where they are
> currently courted by the government (don't have to have photo ids,
> their farming methods are advanced, and attainable, compared to local
> historical methods, they provide no drain on the educational system,
> etc).  Here they have been badgered (over schooling, social security,
> plenty) in many places until it's actually embarrassing, at least to
> me, to think that my country behaves so.  They are, from their point
> of view, being forced out.

Thanks for making me realize this. I should have thought about that.  I
don't think I really meant it as fact, but I see that I implied it.
There are even plenty of Mennonites in GA who came here not only for the
land, but for the schooling freedom.

I would hazard a guess, albeit
> only a guess, that it makes the counting a little more difficult,
> too, as they often make themselves difficult to quantify: easier to
> stay under the radar to be left alone.

Smart move.


> From our (world) point of view, all this moving looks like is that
> they are going from the frying pan to the fire, but from their point
> of view, it's the frying pan until it tips over, then a new frying
> pan......all of this is to them simply the way it has been since the
> followers of Zwingli were forced to meet in barns and caves in the
> 1500s:  the norm.


You are absolutely right.  I stand corrected.
I have clipped the remainder of your post, but I bow to it's truth and
it gives me a lot to think about.  I see the point that you and Lynn are
making about "warring species"(I wish I had not said that that way), I
just hope that you can understand my belief that homo sapiens, as
individuals are a violent, aggressive species.  People should be able to
play carom(and gosh I haven't heard any mention of that game in 15
years!) without being slaughtered...

Bev

--
“Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to
hate. Hate leads to suffering.”        Yoda