permaculture

[sandra joel campe <zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>]

Hi Steve,

I think what you are noticing is exactly what is happening when we are
accusing people instead of asking open questions, when we are offensive
instead of ready to discuss: the language you use leads to people
reacting to the LANGUAGE, not to the CONTENT.

now you can go on complaining that people are not discussing the issue
but just react to your style of communication - but WHAT is the lesson
to be learned here? (and in conflict situations in general)

i would say: communication style matters. as i suggested below (in a
private mail to you, see below for all those that have not seen it).

this is not about "killing the messenger" but about learning "people
care" and how communication between humans works! why should everybody
on this list be saints, ignore your offences and quietly discuss your
suggested issues when you have definitely been offensive?

so, maybe you want to try and rephrase your initial email and ask some
sprecific questions without being accusatory, and then see what the
replies will be... or just reply to Georgs mail just now, who is asking
for details, experiences, etc.

hugs, to martina, too,
sandra






Am 15.07.2016 um 11:35 schrieb Steve Hart:
> Hi Sandra...expect you are very much enjoying summer. We are fine
> thanks. Nice to hear from you, but
> 
> The subject that I raised in my entry to this conversation was specific
> about my knowledge of the operations of Geoff Lawton. I know first hand
> how he has and still operates. I have heard many people repeat similar
> experiences. The key line of this topic is how do we sit by and continue
> to support this type of activity which is also being carried on by
> others. OK it probably does take some abrupt communication mode to
> highlight such activity, otherwise it would be an argument that would be
> so warm and weak and go unnoticed. Several points I have made have not
> been discussed at all. The reactions in main have been how I have
> communicated. In my opinion the way I communicate at times as I have
> here is a far cry from the realities of the subject matter. 
> 
> I can't understand why people especially like yourself with so much
> talent intelligence, experience, skills and energy in this movement does
> not recognise the key issue of how we as a global network or family need
> to begin dealing with the atrocities of Lawton et al. It is always easy
> to kill the messanger, but what of the message ?
> 
> Shall we focus on that ? Or just shut the person up who speaks out ? 
> Steve Hart
> 
> On 15 July 2016 at 19:22, sandra joel campe
> <zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net <mailto:zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>> wrote:
> 
>     hi steve,
> 
>     a number of people have been offended by your email, and now you are
>     telling them to take some B6? you can't be serious. i would say: you
>     should reconsider your communication style. and i am saying this as a
>     friend and person who has worked with you.
>     how long do you want to continue using the european and international
>     permaculture mailinglists offending and provoking people?
> 
>     not just those that are offended are put off by your communication
>     style. and you may wish for a no-rule-policy - but i don't think you are
>     contributing to this. to the contrary - i guess you will be the first
>     one to be moderated.
>     there is a difference between "freedom of speech and expression" and
>     "being offensive". in all those years of internet use you must have
>     heard of "nettiquette", e.g.: write as if that person is sitting in
>     front of you.
> 
>     and i would like to know how this communication mode has actually
>     contributed to your cooperation with others.
> 
>     apart from that, i hope you are doing well.
> 
>     best,
>     sandra
> 
>     Am 15.07.2016 um 09:10 schrieb Steve Hart:
>     > Rules are made for breaking is what I learnt in the school yard.
>     What I
>     > have found on lists such rules limit freedom of speech and
>     expression. If
>     > anyone is ever offended by someone elses views no matter how they
>     are put
>     > perhaps they need a good dose of B6.  I prefer to see lists with no
>     > rules.....Steve Hart
>     >
>     > On 15 July 2016 at 18:32, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net
>     <mailto:declan@planetmail.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     >> Moderating involves enforcing rules by private warnings, more
>     public ones
>     >> added to the offering thread, and suspension of list membership
>     for trolls
>     >> and sharks.
>     >> Posts should be on topic unless labeled '[OT]', and should not
>     contain
>     >> religion or politics. Unsupported personal abuse , or judgemental
>     comments.
>     >> Trolling, spam & advertising at products/services are taken more
>     seriously.
>     >> Site URLs in a sigfile are tolerated, but the sigfile should be
>     short. Your
>     >> sigfile is as long as they should be.
>     >>
>     >> Most lists have a set of rules on a webpage for the moderator to
>     refer
>     >> people to. It would be good to put up such a page. Then you are
>     enforcing
>     >> "The rules" and it's not just your opinion. Good rulesets abound
>     online and
>     >> you can plagiarise a few to get a rule set for this list.
>     >> --
>     >> Declan Moriarty
>     >> Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com <http://mail.com> Mail.
>     Please excuse my brevity.
>     >> On 14/07/2016, 23:49 Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
>     <mailto:lfljvenaura@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Toby Hemenway
>     <toby@patternliteracy.com <mailto:toby@patternliteracy.com>>
>     >>> wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>> Along with Declan, I ‘d like posts here to be directly related to
>     >>>> permaculture design, that is, will improve our ability to do
>     design and
>     >>>> understand permaculture.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> So be it. I will do whatever I can to help that along. It is my
>     preference
>     >>> too.
>     >>> Be sure to send me any useful management suggstions as Declan did.
>     >>>
>     >>> LL
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> --
>     >>> Lawrence F. London
>     >>> lfljvenaura@gmail.com <mailto:lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
>     >>> https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>     >>>
>     https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116100117925365792988/+Avantgeared/posts
>     >>> https://ello.co/lflondon <https://ello.co/permaculture>
>     >>> https://ello.co/permaculture
>     >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>     >>> permaculture mailing list
>     >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>     <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>     >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>     >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>     >>>
>     >>
>     >> permaculture mailing list
>     >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>     >>
>     >>
>     >
>     >
> 
>     --
>     sandra joel campe
>     sieben linden ecovillage
>     d-38489 beetzendorf
>     germany
>     skype: xcampe.sinax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kia ora Ehoa
> 
> Picture
> *Steve Hart*
> *Ecology Architect*
> /Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> and Systems Ecology.​/
> Skype: tipenemanawa
> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
> 
> Permaculture Global Design: 
> www.permacultureglobaldesign.org <http://www.permacultureglobaldesign.org>
> 
> The Permaculture International College 
> www.permaculturecollege.eu <http://www.permaculturecollege.eu> 
> https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
> 
> GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
> www.permaculturepartnerships.com <http://www.permaculturepartnerships.com>
> 

-- 
sandra joel campe
sieben linden ecovillage
d-38489 beetzendorf
germany
skype: xcampe.sinax