permaculture

[<scott@permaculture.org>]

Dear All,

I have be biting my tongue to tatters trying to stay out of this conversation 
but in the interest of staying lingual I must say a word or two.

Some years ago I initiated a session in the Brazil Permaculture Convergence 
called "The Elephant in the Room" and continued it through the Cuban 
Convergence.  I stayed away from the Great Britain Convergence because it 
featured Geoff Lawton as a key note speaker.  When I stated my objection to 
Lawton being given such an honored position I was told "he puts butts in the 
seats".  Since I couldn't argue with this logic I shut my mouth and saved my 
air flight carbon for a more worthy cause.  Putting "butts in seats" is not 
one my driving issues when pursuing permaculture, in fact I think this 
mindset is a perfect example of what drives Lawton and many other latter day 
permaculture teachers and designers.  

Steve Hart is not the only one who has issues with this new breed of 
promotional, capitalistic, and ego driven individuals in permaculture.  Bill 
Mollison used to say if we just ignore them they will disappear through 
attrition but that hasn't proven to be true.  In an age of internet, video 
promotion, and personality worship we have joined the mainstream culture's 
striving for stars to guide us, no matter their ethics.

A lot of what I see as criticism of Steve has to do with political 
correctness which to me is another term for don't make anyone uncomfortable 
no matter how heinous their behavior.  Every one seems to think it is ok to 
call out someone's bad behavior as long as we present proof and eyewitnesses 
to our claims.  First of all most of Lawtons errors have been aired ad naseum 
on the internet -  check it out.  I even went to the trouble to photograph 
and post pictures of the "Green Revolution" site while at the Jordan 
convergence. Which showed that it was nothing more than a promotional stunt 
that worked brilliantly. Second of all check out the others mentioned in the 
thread and you will see that their behavior has also been spelled out and the 
response is, virtually always, a threat of lawsuit.  I have been sued twice 
by Vladislav along with many other of my colleagues in permaculture.  Also 
remember that most of the misbehavior has to do with newcomers to the 
permaculture movement and they don't know to whom they address their 
grievances, because there is no such mechanism - by design it would seem. 

As for moderation of this group it is another form of censorship as is 
political correctness.  As as long as a contributor doesn't attack ones 
mother, children, wife, husbqand etc but is speaking of unethical or 
unpermacultural behavior I think the gloves have to be off.  I also don't 
think that permaculture is only about horticulture or silvaculture, in fact I 
think it is more about ethics, social, legal, and financial sectors of our 
culture.  As far as I'm concerned this thread has been about ethics in 
permaculture and, frankly, there are problems living up to those ethics 
within a small but loud minority in our midst.  I think that we have to 
expose unethical behavior wherever it rears its ugly head and I will continue 
to do so if I get moderated off of the list so be it.

To turn a blind eye to unethical behavior is, in my mind equivalent to 
condoning it.  I have spent 30 years of my life teaching and practicing 
permaculture because it was congruent with my own ethics and belief system 
and I'll be damned if I will allow these entrepreneurial, mainstreaming, 
narcissistic, IT hip, litigious, capitalist, sociopaths besmirch what 
thousands of us have nurtured and maintained in integrity for 40(+-) years.

I am currently writing a book titled "Dharma of Permaculture" in which I try 
to argue the case that we need to take the implicit directives of pc ehtics 
into the explicit with concomitant sanction for transgression of said ethics. 
 This is a theme that I have promoted for the last 15 years and it has not 
gained much traction.  I  think it is because most of us are still held, like 
deer in the headlights, in the deadly embrace of our capitalistic paradigm 
and all that that implies.

Scott
Permaculture Institute 


>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>  To: sandra joel campe <zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>, permaculture 
><permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Subject: [permaculture] Is it Satirical irony or
>  Sent: Jul 15 '16 03:36
>  
>  Hi Sandra...expect you are very much enjoying summer. We are fine thanks.
>  Nice to hear from you, but
>  
>  The subject that I raised in my entry to this conversation was specific
>  about my knowledge of the operations of Geoff Lawton. I know first hand how
>  he has and still operates. I have heard many people repeat similar
>  experiences. The key line of this topic is how do we sit by and continue to
>  support s type of activity which is also being carried on by others. OK
>  it probably does take some abrupt communication mode to highlight such
>  activity, otherwise it would be an argument that would be so warm and weak
>  and go unnoticed. Several points I have made have not been discussed at
>  all. The reactions in main have been how I have communicated. In my opinion
>  the way I communicate at times as I have here is a far cry from the
>  realities of the subject matter.
>  
>  I can't understand why people especially like yourself with so much talent
>  intelligence, experience, skills and energy in this movement does not
>  recognise the key issue of how we as a global network or family need to
>  begin dealing with the atrocities of Lawton et al. It is always easy to
>  kill the messanger, but what of the message ?
>  
>  Shall we focus on that ? Or just shut the person up who speaks out ?
>  Steve Hart
>  
>  On 15 July 2016 at 19:22, sandra joel campe <zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>
>  wrote:
>  
>  > hi steve,
>  >
>  > a number of people have been offended by your email, and now you are
>  > telling them to take some B6? you can't be serious. i would say: you
>  > should reconsider your communication style. and i am saying this as a
>  > friend and person who has worked with you.
>  > how long do you want to continue using the european and international
>  > permaculture mailinglists offending and provoking people?
>  >
>  > not just those that are offended are put off by your communication
>  > style. and you may wish for a no-rule-policy - but i don't think you are
>  > contributing to this. to the contrary - i guess you will be the first
>  > one to be moderated.
>  > there is a difference between "freedom of speech and expression" and
>  > "being offensive". in all those years of internet use you must have
>  > heard of "nettiquette", e.g.: write as if that person is sitting in
>  > front of you.
>  >
>  > and i would like to know how this communication mode has actually
>  > contributed to your cooperation with others.
>  >
>  > apart from that, i hope you are doing well.
>  >
>  > best,
>  > sandra
>  >
>  > Am 15.07.2016 um 09:10 schrieb Steve Hart:
>  > > Rules are made for breaking is what I learnt in the school yard. What I
>  > > have found on lists such rules limit freedom of speech and expression. 
>If
>  > > anyone is ever offended by someone elses views no matter how they are 
>put
>  > > perhaps they need a good dose of B6.  I prefer to see lists with no
>  > > rules.....Steve Hart
>  > >
>  > > On 15 July 2016 at 18:32, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net> wrote:
>  > >
>  > >> Moderating involves enforcing rules by private warnings, more public
>  > ones
>  > >> added to the offering thread, and suspension of list membership for
>  > trolls
>  > >> and sharks.
>  > >> Posts should be on topic unless labeled '[OT]', and should not contain
>  > >> religion or politics. Unsupported personal abuse , or judgemental
>  > comments.
>  > >> Trolling, spam & advertising at products/services are taken more
>  > seriously.
>  > >> Site URLs in a sigfile are tolerated, but the sigfile should be short.
>  > Your
>  > >> sigfile is as long as they should be.
>  > >>
>  > >> Most lists have a set of rules on a webpage for the moderator to refer
>  > >> people to. It would be good to put up such a page. Then you are
>  > enforcing
>  > >> "The rules" and it's not just your opinion. Good rulesets abound 
>online
>  > and
>  > >> you can plagiarise a few to get a rule set for this list.
>  > >> --
>  > >> Declan Moriarty
>  > >> Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my
>  > brevity.
>  > >> On 14/07/2016, 23:49 Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Toby Hemenway <
>  > toby@patternliteracy.com>
>  > >>> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>>> Along with Declan, I ‘d like posts here to be directly related to
>  > >>>> permaculture design, that is, will improve our ability to do design
>  > and
>  > >>>> understand permaculture.
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> So be it. I will do whatever I can to help that along. It is my
>  > preference
>  > >>> too.
>  > >>> Be sure to send me any useful management suggstions as Declan did.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> LL
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> --
>  > >>> Lawrence F. London
>  > >>> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
>  > >>> https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>  > >>> 
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116100117925365792988/+Avantgeared/posts
>  > >>> https://ello.co/lflondon <https://ello.co/permaculture>
>  > >>> https://ello.co/permaculture
>  > >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>  > >>> permaculture mailing list
>  > >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  > >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>  > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  > >>>
>  > >>
>  > >> permaculture mailing list
>  > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>  > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  > --
>  > sandra joel campe
>  > sieben linden ecovillage
>  > d-38489 beetzendorf
>  > germany
>  > skype: xcampe.sinax
>  >
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Kia ora Ehoa
>  
>  [image: Picture]
>  *Steve Hart*
>  *Ecology Architect*
>  *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
>  Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
>  and Systems Ecology.​*
>  Skype: tipenemanawa
>  Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
>  
>  Permaculture Global Design:
>  www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
>  
>  The Permaculture International College
>  www.permaculturecollege.eu
>  https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
>  
>  GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
>  www.permaculturepartnerships.com
>  permaculture mailing list
>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>