permaculture

[Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>]

Scott brings up a lot of important points and has me thinking deeply as he
often does. I'm in favor of discussing the problems of permaculture
politics on this list, but is it possible to be transparent about it by
titling posts accurately, and be permacultural about it and discuss
solutions too? Too often those kinds of posts, regardless of
intention, devolve into angry rants. What if someone posted with more
concern in their tone than vitriol? I truly am concerned about groups like
PRI and others, but admit the continual bashing turns me off,
mainly because it's not producing anything positive (I had to realize this
for myself as I bashed away). What are we gonna do is what's of interest to
me?

The only thing that makes sense to me is to do really good work and promote
excellence in practice through my own teaching, mentoring, and designing.
I don't want the big mouthpiece, the monetary clout, or the
recognition that Geoff and others have, that's of zero interest to me, and
sets the wrong precedent for the type of world I think we are trying to
develop. In my view those types will continue to dominate the internet,
which admittedly is a simulacrum of society that I'm increasingly
uninterested in. So I'm telling my students to become more interested in
life itself rather than screens. I want to point people to the source
rather than the talking heads, and that means they're gonna have to go out
and get their hands dirty to engage WITH the source, put their phones down
and interact in the world. It's sad that the internet is now The World to
so many people (and this is coming from someone who technically could be
called a millennial).

I'm pretty committed to the above strategy, but would be excited to hear
others ideas.

Back to life,
Jason



On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 10:19 AM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I have be biting my tongue to tatters trying to stay out of this
> conversation but in the interest of staying lingual I must say a word or
> two.
>
> Some years ago I initiated a session in the Brazil Permaculture
> Convergence called "The Elephant in the Room" and continued it through the
> Cuban Convergence.  I stayed away from the Great Britain Convergence
> because it featured Geoff Lawton as a key note speaker.  When I stated my
> objection to Lawton being given such an honored position I was told "he
> puts butts in the seats".  Since I couldn't argue with this logic I shut my
> mouth and saved my air flight carbon for a more worthy cause.  Putting
> "butts in seats" is not one my driving issues when pursuing permaculture,
> in fact I think this mindset is a perfect example of what drives Lawton and
> many other latter day permaculture teachers and designers.
>
> Steve Hart is not the only one who has issues with this new breed of
> promotional, capitalistic, and ego driven individuals in
> permaculture.  Bill Mollison used to say if we just ignore them they will
> disappear through attrition but that hasn't proven to be true.  In an age
> of internet, video promotion, and personality worship we have joined the
> mainstream culture's striving for stars to guide us, no matter their ethics.
>
> A lot of what I see as criticism of Steve has to do with political
> correctness which to me is another term for don't make anyone uncomfortable
> no matter how heinous their behavior.  Every one seems to think it is ok to
> call out someone's bad behavior as long as we present proof and
> eyewitnesses to our claims.  First of all most of Lawtons errors have been
> aired ad naseum on the internet -  check it out.  I even went to the
> trouble to photograph and post pictures of the "Green Revolution" site
> while at the Jordan convergence. Which showed that it was nothing more than
> a promotional stunt that worked brilliantly. Second of all check out the
> others mentioned in the thread and you will see that their behavior has
> also been spelled out and the response is, virtually always, a threat of
> lawsuit.  I have been sued twice by Vladislav along with many other of my
> colleagues in permaculture.  Also remember that most of the misbehavior has
> to do with newcomers to the permaculture movement and they don't know to
> whom they address their grievances, because there is no such mechanism - by
> design it would seem.
>
> As for moderation of this group it is another form of censorship as is
> political correctness.  As as long as a contributor doesn't attack ones
> mother, children, wife, husbqand etc but is speaking of unethical or
> unpermacultural behavior I think the gloves have to be off.  I also don't
> think that permaculture is only about horticulture or silvaculture, in fact
> I think it is more about ethics, social, legal, and financial sectors of
> our culture.  As far as I'm concerned this thread has been about ethics in
> permaculture and, frankly, there are problems living up to those ethics
> within a small but loud minority in our midst.  I think that we have to
> expose unethical behavior wherever it rears its ugly head and I will
> continue to do so if I get moderated off of the list so be it.
>
> To turn a blind eye to unethical behavior is, in my mind equivalent to
> condoning it.  I have spent 30 years of my life teaching and practicing
> permaculture because it was congruent with my own ethics and belief system
> and I'll be damned if I will allow these entrepreneurial, mainstreaming,
> narcissistic, IT hip, litigious, capitalist, sociopaths besmirch what
> thousands of us have nurtured and maintained in integrity for 40(+-) years.
>
> I am currently writing a book titled "Dharma of Permaculture" in which I
> try to argue the case that we need to take the implicit directives of pc
> ehtics into the explicit with concomitant sanction for transgression of
> said ethics.  This is a theme that I have promoted for the last 15 years
> and it has not gained much traction.  I  think it is because most of us are
> still held, like deer in the headlights, in the deadly embrace of our
> capitalistic paradigm and all that that implies.
>
> Scott
> Permaculture Institute
>
>
> >  -------Original Message-------
> >  From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> >  To: sandra joel campe <zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>, permaculture <
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >  Subject: [permaculture] Is it Satirical irony or
> >  Sent: Jul 15 '16 03:36
> >
> >  Hi Sandra...expect you are very much enjoying summer. We are fine
> thanks.
> >  Nice to hear from you, but
> >
> >  The subject that I raised in my entry to this conversation was specific
> >  about my knowledge of the operations of Geoff Lawton. I know first hand
> how
> >  he has and still operates. I have heard many people repeat similar
> >  experiences. The key line of this topic is how do we sit by and
> continue to
> >  support s type of activity which is also being carried on by others. OK
> >  it probably does take some abrupt communication mode to highlight such
> >  activity, otherwise it would be an argument that would be so warm and
> weak
> >  and go unnoticed. Several points I have made have not been discussed at
> >  all. The reactions in main have been how I have communicated. In my
> opinion
> >  the way I communicate at times as I have here is a far cry from the
> >  realities of the subject matter.
> >
> >  I can't understand why people especially like yourself with so much
> talent
> >  intelligence, experience, skills and energy in this movement does not
> >  recognise the key issue of how we as a global network or family need to
> >  begin dealing with the atrocities of Lawton et al. It is always easy to
> >  kill the messanger, but what of the message ?
> >
> >  Shall we focus on that ? Or just shut the person up who speaks out ?
> >  Steve Hart
> >
> >  On 15 July 2016 at 19:22, sandra joel campe <
> zukunftswerkstatt@riseup.net>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  > hi steve,
> >  >
> >  > a number of people have been offended by your email, and now you are
> >  > telling them to take some B6? you can't be serious. i would say: you
> >  > should reconsider your communication style. and i am saying this as a
> >  > friend and person who has worked with you.
> >  > how long do you want to continue using the european and international
> >  > permaculture mailinglists offending and provoking people?
> >  >
> >  > not just those that are offended are put off by your communication
> >  > style. and you may wish for a no-rule-policy - but i don't think you
> are
> >  > contributing to this. to the contrary - i guess you will be the first
> >  > one to be moderated.
> >  > there is a difference between "freedom of speech and expression" and
> >  > "being offensive". in all those years of internet use you must have
> >  > heard of "nettiquette", e.g.: write as if that person is sitting in
> >  > front of you.
> >  >
> >  > and i would like to know how this communication mode has actually
> >  > contributed to your cooperation with others.
> >  >
> >  > apart from that, i hope you are doing well.
> >  >
> >  > best,
> >  > sandra
> >  >
> >  > Am 15.07.2016 um 09:10 schrieb Steve Hart:
> >  > > Rules are made for breaking is what I learnt in the school yard.
> What I
> >  > > have found on lists such rules limit freedom of speech and
> expression. If
> >  > > anyone is ever offended by someone elses views no matter how they
> are put
> >  > > perhaps they need a good dose of B6.  I prefer to see lists with no
> >  > > rules.....Steve Hart
> >  > >
> >  > > On 15 July 2016 at 18:32, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net>
> wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >> Moderating involves enforcing rules by private warnings, more
> public
> >  > ones
> >  > >> added to the offering thread, and suspension of list membership for
> >  > trolls
> >  > >> and sharks.
> >  > >> Posts should be on topic unless labeled '[OT]', and should not
> contain
> >  > >> religion or politics. Unsupported personal abuse , or judgemental
> >  > comments.
> >  > >> Trolling, spam & advertising at products/services are taken more
> >  > seriously.
> >  > >> Site URLs in a sigfile are tolerated, but the sigfile should be
> short.
> >  > Your
> >  > >> sigfile is as long as they should be.
> >  > >>
> >  > >> Most lists have a set of rules on a webpage for the moderator to
> refer
> >  > >> people to. It would be good to put up such a page. Then you are
> >  > enforcing
> >  > >> "The rules" and it's not just your opinion. Good rulesets abound
> online
> >  > and
> >  > >> you can plagiarise a few to get a rule set for this list.
> >  > >> --
> >  > >> Declan Moriarty
> >  > >> Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my
> >  > brevity.
> >  > >> On 14/07/2016, 23:49 Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Toby Hemenway <
> >  > toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >  > >>> wrote:
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>>> Along with Declan, I ‘d like posts here to be directly related to
> >  > >>>> permaculture design, that is, will improve our ability to do
> design
> >  > and
> >  > >>>> understand permaculture.
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> So be it. I will do whatever I can to help that along. It is my
> >  > preference
> >  > >>> too.
> >  > >>> Be sure to send me any useful management suggstions as Declan did.
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> LL
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> --
> >  > >>> Lawrence F. London
> >  > >>> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> >  > >>> https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
> >  > >>>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116100117925365792988/+Avantgeared/posts
> >  > >>> https://ello.co/lflondon <https://ello.co/permaculture>
> >  > >>> https://ello.co/permaculture
> >  > >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >  > >>> permaculture mailing list
> >  > >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >  > >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >  > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>
> >  > >> permaculture mailing list
> >  > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >  > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >  > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >  > >>
> >  > >>
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > sandra joel campe
> >  > sieben linden ecovillage
> >  > d-38489 beetzendorf
> >  > germany
> >  > skype: xcampe.sinax
> >  >
> >
> >
> >
> >  --
> >  Kia ora Ehoa
> >
> >  [image: Picture]
> >  *Steve Hart*
> >  *Ecology Architect*
> >  *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> >  Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> >  and Systems Ecology.​*
> >  Skype: tipenemanawa
> >  Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
> >
> >  Permaculture Global Design:
> >  www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
> >
> >  The Permaculture International College
> >  www.permaculturecollege.eu
> >  https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
> >
> >  GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
> >  www.permaculturepartnerships.com
> >  permaculture mailing list
> >  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >  subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
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