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  • From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
  • Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:08:45 -0700 (PDT)

If I'm not mistaken the land of permaculture's origin is even more male
dominated than the United States.  I wonder if this leaks through a wee bit
in permaculture's general demeanor, or whether it's perhaps an artifact of
our past culture irrelevant of permaculture.  I agree wholeheartedly with
David Holmgren that there's a lot of toxic thinking that has to be
"unlearned." [my word I think]  With no particular finger to point in any
particular direction, I just want to mention that it takes time to turn a
train(wreck). 
 
Surely this artifact of paternal-lineaged, sky-god agriculture will pass just
as fast as our use of oil;o)
 
Tripp out.
 

 

The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Tue, 8/17/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:


From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:51 PM


I gather from the lack of response to my post inquiring about adopting some
more universally acceptable methods of discourse on this list that there
isn't  much interest in pursuing that.

In the spirit of the discourse that is actually going on, I'd like to join 
in.  "Boy's rules," right?  Competitive jabs just fine - especially if  we
pat each other on the back and make up afterwards?  (In case you think  I'm
making this up, there's good research on men's and women's different styles 
of communication - women on average tend to prefer the cooperative and 
consensual  -- not all women of course -- and perhaps women's average style 
isn't better, but it's definitely different).

But I can play the sporty guy game too.  Every woman who's successful  in
business, professional life or academia in North America or Europe has had to
learn it -- and unfortunately way too few men have been interested in
learning  the art of more consensual/non-competitive discourse.

So let me shoot from the hip here: tough guy, clever jabs are fun for many 
men and a few women but are frequently off-putting for those not raised to 
enjoy this kind of "violent" and attacking dialogue.  I'm Canadian,  and at
least when I was growing up, Canadians (both male and female) thought  this
kind of cowboy discourse was pretty crude and very American. But I admit 
it's sometimes more entertaining than traditional Canadian politeness.  Of 
course as Michael Moore has pointed out so cleverly, even though Canadians
have  as many guns as Americans, they don't tend to shoot people.

My concern about this conversational climate is about the people it 
excludes. For example, how many other women are regular posters on this 
list? 
Come to that, I wonder how many women or minority folk are at  the "top
table"
in permaculture?  Thank god/goddess for Robyn Francis,  Penny
Livingston-Stark, Starhawk and my other heroines, but still?  There  was
recently a
meeting of West Coast Women in Permaculture (which I  unfortunately missed)
and I
was curious why women were feeling the need to  separate themselves out
from the rest of permaculture and what issues they might  want to explore?

I'm a long time poster on another list about green issues and, sadly, this 
competitive, jabbing style of discourse has effectively driven away most of
the  women, who ended up forming their own list as a place where they could
talk  their own language and discuss the topic at hand in a different
manner.  It  would be very sad if this happened to permaculture as well,
which is
why I keep  wondering if we can adopt a more inclusive way of communicating
with each other  as part of our People Care and Fair Share ethics.

And lest you think this is just a problem for women, there are men from 
other cultures who also find the competitive, put-down style of conversation 
unpleasant.  This is a big world, with many different cultures.   
Permaculture is so important for human survival; I believe that a more 
sensitive and
neutral way of communicating with each other would benefit  permaculture --
and the many people around the world who need it -- in the long  run.

So now -- I'm open for returning jabs.

Linda


In a message dated 8/16/2010 9:42:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net writes:

On  8/16/2010 11:46 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> Lawrence, what in god's name  are you on about?
>
> Is it really so beyond the pale that I hold  a position that
> it's strategically not a good idea to do PDCs for  white power groups?
> Really?
>
> People have made good  arguments, some better than others, as to why
> it actually WOULD be ok.  I've read them with genuine interest.
> In contrast, you seem to be  outraged that I would even have the temerity
to voice
> my position. You  may think I'm wrong, but you are writing like my
position
> is not only  totally fucking bonkers, but that I'm literally trying to
TAKE OVER  AND
> DESTROY Permaculture just by asserting this position.  Huh?

Sorry, Rafter. I was just blowing off steam and, I'll admit,  challenging
you with some of my pet ideas. Don't be concerned about it.  You
certainly don't need my acid-tongued sarcasm, eh :-) See it as  just
my usual kicking the tires way of list management. Its always a  learning
process for me, just exactly what do I need to do to keep  this
forum a world class resource and as useful to people as it can  possibly
be; tweak the dialog and stimulate the best from everyone, and  smoke the
lurkers out of the woodworks. The answer to that is obvious, a 
hands-off, benevolent neglect approach. This has become a habit for me 
since 1992. But I have surely learned from this last debate and a few in 
recent past too. I'll take a new tack in the future
and use a better  choice of words. I just wasn't think things through
completely enough. Its  also the times we are in and the political winds
that blow into every  crevice of one's life; the rhetoric, the
divisiveness, the ploys and  outright lies.

Onward, down our respective paths through the deep  permaculture  forest.


...:LL
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>From LBUZZELL@aol.com Thu Aug 19 15:14:59 2010
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
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Hi Cory and everyone,

On the military using permaculture for purposes that might conflict with
PmC ethics, a few previous posters have spelled those dangers in great
detail so I won't repeat it here. I'm certainly no expert on CIA thinking or
military/corporate strategy during occupations, but I'm also not naive enough
to believe that the introduction of new agricultural methods by an
occupying army has no ulterior motive.

Also, previous posters have speculated that if permaculture is introduced
to a culture by an unpopular occupying army, this negative attitude towards
permaculture might endanger future permaculture teachers in that area. I
have no information that this has ever happened, but logically I think it's
a possible result to consider.

Linda


In a message dated 8/19/2010 11:58:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
cory8570@yahoo.com writes:

Could you give an example of what you're thinking when you say "it might
also be true that the military system could use permaculture for purposes
that might conflict with PmC ethics and Afghanis might resent PmC for that
reason or even attack future permaculture teachers who arrived in their
country."

Like spell out a scenario? It will be easier to discuss ethics if we can
narrow down differences and get into specifics. Examples that actually
occurred would be the best.

Cory

--- On Thu, 8/19/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:

> From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
> I agree that this is an important
> discussion.
>
> One thing I've noticed is that those who are uncomfortable
> with the idea of
> teaching permaculture in an official military context seem
> to focus on the
> organization/ecosystem, while those who defend teaching
> permaculture to
> "everyone" seem to focus on individuals. Sort of like
> the forest and the
> trees? Would it be possible to adopt a "yes/and"
> approach, where we look at
> both?
>
> For example, I can see how if I were an individual soldier
> or an individual
> Afghani farmer I might benefit from the opportunity to
> learn permaculture,
> but it might also be true that the military system
> could use permaculture
> for purposes that might conflict with PmC ethics and
> Afghanis might resent
> PmC for that reason or even attack future
> permaculture teachers who arrived
> in their country. It's very complicated!
>
> I don't see a way to simplify this into a simple "rule" --
> "teach PmC to
> anyone and everyone who's interested" or "don't teach
> PmC to military
> organizations that might misuse it for nasty purposes." So
> how do we make our
> ethical decisions?
>
> Linda
>
>
> In a message dated 8/19/2010 10:59:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time,
> cory8570@yahoo.com
> writes:
>
> "Permaculture is a revolution disguised as
> gardening." That is a
> succinct way to describe the movement that carries with it
> many implications. I've
> told that to people on virtually every point of the
> political spectrum and
> they actually get it - they get that permaculture
> offers individual
> freedom and quality of life, a way out from under the
> thumb of the oppressor
> (whoever they may feel that is), and a healthier way to
> live.
>
> Permaculture can be forwarded by any group, and it is up to
> those of us
> that understand the subject to ensure that inaccurate
> information about it is
> corrected. There are a number of ways to achieve that that
> have been
> mentioned here. I feel that is an important discussion -
> how should we keep the
> subject accurate, as it leaks out into the mainstream and
> various other
> groups? It is inevitable that it will, so why try to
> stop it? What we really
> need to do is control the accuracy of the subject.
>
> The most active permaculturists on this list tend
> toward the left/hippie
> modality, but as others have mentioned, there are
> permaculturists at any
> political spectrum.
>
> I find the discussions about excluding people from
> the "movement" simply
> because of where they work (like the army), or their
> religious affiliation,
> or political affiliation, etc, to be a form of
> discrimination and a human
> and civil rights violation, as well as a clear lack
> of understanding of the
> ethics of "people care."
>
> Who here thinks that people care means "only the
> people I personally agree
> with?" or "only the people I personally feel
> are worthy of being exposed
> to natural principles?" or "only the people I
> personally think could
> possibly understand these natural principles, even
> though they are universally
> understood by all living being, on a visceral level, when
> they actually
> listen to themselves?"
>
> I think it is incredibly egoistic to assume that any
> of us knows best who
> should be exposed to this knowledge, or that they
> could possibly predict
> how it might affect them, change them, enlighten
> them, increase their ability
> to be ethical and decent human beings, etc.
>
> Haven't we all been through paradigm shift in some way or
> other? For many
> of us it has been a gut wrenching experience. For me, it is
> a life long
> journey which delves ever deeper. I would feel terrible if
> I denied someone
> else the opportunity to explore those depths, simply
> because of some
> unexamined prejudice I have about some group they belong
> to. I personally know
> someone who used to be "Aryan race" proponent who saw the
> light and completely
> reformed and is now a civil rights activist for minorities.
> There is a 25
> year career ex-Army guy in the PDC I'm giving right
> now at Pine Ridge Lakota
> reservation that is turning himself inside out to help Pine
> Ridge.
>
> ANYTHING can happen, guys, people are very volatile
> beings.
>
> I use very hands on methods of teaching permaculture
> that takes people
> outside of their paradigm and puts them in touch with
> the natural world on
> that visceral level - such as Tom Brown techniques,
> etc. I have personally
> witnessed massive paradigm shifts so I know it can be
> done, even if a person
> is immersed in the "corporate" or "army" paradigm.
> Those are the people we
> need to reach most. Some of us embrace that
> challenge, and some of us want
> nothing to do with it. Great! I'm all for
> diversity, but please don't try
> to tell another experienced permaculturist who they
> should talk to about
> permaculture, when you don't even know them or the
> situation.
>
> Best, Cory
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/16/10, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking
> (was Designing a Movement)
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:41 PM
> > Rafter-- as usual, I get and
> > appreciate what you say and the tone in which
> you say it,
> > and take it in the kind spirit it is given. I
> agree that I
> > oversimplified and showed a lot of bias in my
> description of
> > what movements are. Mostly because I see little
> upside, and
> > a lot of downside, to permaculture being regarded as
> a
> > movement. There have been many memorable and
> effective
> > movements, of course: civil rights, anti-war,
> anti-abortion,
> > German National Socialism, and others all over
> the map.
> > Movements attract . . . what's a polite word for
> fanatic?
> > Perhaps activist is. Some do immense good, some
> immense
> > harm. Some movements increase the rights of one group
> at the
> > expense of others. Some do better than that. Civil
> rights is
> > the broadest and best model I can think of.
> >
> > But almost any movement comes with its own
> political
> > framework and can usually be placed in a fairly
> small region
> > of the political spectrum. If we look at
> permaculture as a
> > movement, it's in the quite left-wing,
> Earth-worshipping,
> > hippie-descended, middle and upper middle class,
> etc, etc,
> > region, with a modest number of outliers included.
> A narrow
> > slice. Who else would even be arguing about working
> with the
> > army?
> >
> > So what are the odds of a movement like this
> getting a wide
> > reception? To anyone outside of permaculture's
> primary
> > political clique, the "movement" baggage poses a huge
> > hurdle. It's possible that as a movement
> permaculture can do
> > the same for ecological consciousness that the
> civil rights
> > movement did for racial consciousness. But there
> are some
> > big differences. The civil rights movement as a
> whole was
> > not a methodology or a set of principles; it
> wasn't
> > primarily holding classes or looking to be
> taught in
> > universities. It had one easily grasped central
> point: equal
> > rights for all races. We can't define our central
> point, if
> > we have one, in less than a fat black book or a
> two-week
> > course. And a politicized movement is not going
> to be
> > invited into schools or local governments or
> churches or
> > other institutions except in those instances
> where the
> > politics of the institution match that of
> permaculture
> > activists. Civil rights had to batter its way in, at
> a very
> > high personal cost t
> > o many. Is that what we want to do? I
> think that is an
> > unnecessarily difficult road for us to take; the
> design
> > standpoint will reach people much more quickly.
> Permaculture
> > as a movement won't be invited anywhere that the
> politics or
> > socio-economic groundings don't match the movement's.
> A
> > design approach, however, will be welcomed
> almost anywhere.
> > That's why I'd like to see the design side of
> permaculture
> > emphasized over the movement aspect.
> >
> > Also, I don't see the ethical basis of
> permaculture as an
> > impediment. Who is going to argue against caring
> for the
> > Earth and people? The ethics are bland enough to
> appeal to
> > all. The fact that permaculture involves ethics is
> quite
> > radical, but even very conservative groups grasp
> the need
> > for ethical guidelines. That part can have wide
> appeal. A
> > left-ish movement doesn't.
> >
> > I do often think of myself as part of a
> movement--who
> > doesn't want to belong to a tribe? But political
> movement
> > design and process are very different from those
> of an
> > ecological design system. Maybe our failure to
> identify and
> > deal with the distinction is why permaculture
> has made so
> > little progress in 30 years. I think there are
> some good
> > things to be learned from pursuing this a bit.
> >
> > Toby
> > http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 16, 2010, at 4:28 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Toby,
> > >
> > > As usual, I'm crazy about your response, in
> tone,
> > quality of thinking, and content.
> > >
> > > All except for the third paragraph where,
> for reasons
> > I can't fathom, you redefine
> > > the concept of "movement" - and by
> implication,
> > movement participants -
> > > as simpleton ideological cliques. It bears
> no relation
> > to any recognizable
> > > definition of social movement.
> > >
> > > Why, Toby, why? [insert wringing of hands]
> > >
> > > Why work to isolate Pc from the inspiring
> history, and
> > critical present-day
> > > reality of global social movements?
> Advocate for your
> > vision of Pc, please.
> > > It's needed. Plus I mostly agree with you. ;)
> > >
> > > But don't paint this distorted picture of social
> > movements.
> > >
> > > Do I agree with you about avoiding
> evangelism,
> > self-righteousness,
> > > and "purity vs. pollution" thinking?
> Absolutely. And
> > the distribution of these
> > > traits - on this list alone! - makes it
> clear that
> > there is no correlation with
> > > the trait of movement thinking.
> > >
> > > Permaculture is a design approach and a movement
> at
> > the very same time - if you use
> > > a recognizable definition of movement. (I
> guess I'm
> > camping in both of your camps.)
> > >
> > > It is certainly not unique among movements. It's
> a
> > fellow traveller with many other
> > > examples of: large numbers of people
> working together
> > in a more-or-less organized,
> > > more-or-less spontaneous fashion, to make
> the world
> > safe, just, and sustainable. (Check out
> Hawken's
> > > Blessed Unrest to see this point made in
> vastly more
> > detail.) Like other grassroots movements, it's
> > > not pure, it's not objective, and to the degree
> that
> > it's adherents are self-righteous evangelical
> > > nincompoops, it will fail!
> > >
> > > Every significant historical gain in
> freedom,
> > worldwide, has been fought for and won -
> > > not through some idealized, objective,
> design
> > practice, but through messy, difficult social
> movements.
> > > Furthermore, they've been fought for with
> tactics of
> > disruptive protest, among other tools in the
> toolbox.
> > > It's bad form, to say the least, for white males
> in
> > the North, like you and me, to foster ignorance
> of that
> > fact.
> > >
> > > Likewise for so much of the significant defenses
> of
> > ecological health that we've been able to
> accomplish -
> > > c.f. the success of the disruptive,
> law-breaking,
> > anti-nuke movement here at home. Do you think
> > > that we'll get decent climate treaties, or
> stop
> > mountaintop removal mining, without
> > > the pressure brought to bear by disruptive
> protest,
> > and the movements that
> > > make it happen? History tells us,
> decisively, "No."
> > >
> > > We can't do an end-run around the need to
> think about
> > the Permaculture milieu as a whole, by focusing
> > > on practice alone. And we need to regard
> ourselves,
> > our whole movement, as part of a greater whole
> -
> > > and not only ecologically. We do this so that
> we don't
> > isolate ourselves from our fellow travelers, so we
> > > can share the crucial and unique resources
> that we
> > bring, with the folks most prepared to make good
> use of
> > them.
> > >
> > > And also because we need those other
> movements that we
> > are making this path with.
> > > Permaculture alone won't get us the world
> we want - a
> > world that's worth living in.
> > >
> > > Thank for all your incredible
> contributions, Toby. I'm
> > confident that you will receive this in
> > > the spirit of collegiality and respect in
> which it is
> > intended.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Rafter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > rafter sass
> > > liberationecology.org
> > >
> > >> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > >> Date: August 16, 2010 10:38:59 AM EDT
> > >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a
> Movement
> > (was: Ethics of whatever)
> > >> Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> rafter wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Teaching Pc for, and to, white
> nationalists,
> > would be bad for the movement.
> > >>
> > >> I think this gets to one of the central
> confusions
> > of this discussion, and why at times we are
> talking past
> > each other (and BTW, I know someone who taught a
> PDC for
> > white ideologists, who told me that a lot of
> important
> > insights came out--for the instructor as well).
> > >>
> > >> I think we fall into two camps: those
> who view
> > permaculture as a movement, and those who view it as
> a
> > design approach. Of course, most of us--myself
> > included--hold portions of both views, but I
> think one will
> > predominate in each person.
> > >>
> > >> If you think of Pc as a movement, then
> we are
> > activists who are trying to transform people's view of
> the
> > world, and we need everyone to see it our way.
> We are right.
> > Permaculture is then a worldview, an ideology of
> sorts, and
> > people need to do it our way, or the wrong side
> will win.
> > And our ideology needs to remain pure and
> uncorrupted.
> > If the wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture
> will become
> > tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something
> we don't
> > want. You are either following it or not; you're
> with us or
> > against us, and if you are against us, you need
> to be
> > transformed.You can see that I don't like the idea of
> Pc
> > being a movement, even though I'm often caught
> up in its
> > evangelical qualities. And it's not a big step
> from being a
> > movement to being a cult, which some accuse
> permaculture of
> > being. Some of the arguments made here are
> almost cult-like:
> > we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept
> from the army
> > or they will do harm with it.
> > >>
> > >> Or the other view: If permaculture is a
> design
> > approach, then at its essence it is a set of
> tools for
> > Earth- and people-care that is not dependent on
> belief or
> > ideology. It can't be corrupted because its use
> either does
> > or doesn't follow the ethics and principles, and
> it stops
> > being permaculture when those are not being
> adhered to. Or
> > at least we can say it is a poor or incomplete
> use of
> > permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a
> poor
> > one. You use the principles in your work or you
> don't. You
> > use ecological and social metrics to assess
> whether you've
> > been successful: As biodiversity up? Are people
> healthy?
> > This puts the responsibility on the user, and
> not on
> > permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted
> by bad
> > people.
> > >>
> > >> Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here:
> We don't DO
> > permaculture, we USE permaculture in what we do.
> Activists
> > in a movement do permaculture. Designers use
> permaculture in
> > what they do. If the army uses permaculture, it
> will result
> > in Earth care and people care. If it doesn't
> have that
> > result, then they aren't using permaculture;
> they are
> > ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to
> yet
> > another tool they have made poor use of. If we
> don't teach
> > them permaculture, there is no chance of them
> doing the good
> > it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my
> view. It will
> > either be abandoned by them, or it will make
> them good
> > designers of healthy systems.
> > >>
> > >> Again, I think "go where you are
> invited" applies.
> > I have no intention of trying to transform the
> army with
> > permaculture: that's ideology. But if they come
> to me
> > to ask how they can use permaculture to have
> ecologically
> > and socially successful and sound projects, I'll
> be there.
> > The student must be ready for the teacher, or
> there will be
> > no learning.
> > >>
> > >> And incidentally, I've really
> appreciated what
> > Rafter and manyy others have written here, especially
> the
> > Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a thought
> provoking thread.
> >
> > >>
> > >> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is
> already being
> > taught in over 25 universities in the US alone, at
> last
> > count.
> > >>
> > >> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin
> suggested, of
> > making the ethics, principles, and curriculum
> much clearer
> > and less subject to wild interpretations. Hence the
> need for
> > organizations that link permaculturists together,
> > >>
> > >> Toby
> > >> http://patternliteracy.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter
> sass wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
> > >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >
> > >
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