permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

If I'm not mistaken the land of permaculture's origin is even more male 
dominated than the United States.  I wonder if this leaks through a wee bit 
in permaculture's general demeanor, or whether it's perhaps an artifact of 
our past culture irrelevant of permaculture.  I agree wholeheartedly with 
David Holmgren that there's a lot of toxic thinking that has to be 
"unlearned." [my word I think]  With no particular finger to point in any 
particular direction, I just want to mention that it takes time to turn a 
train(wreck).  
 
Surely this artifact of paternal-lineaged, sky-god agriculture will pass just 
as fast as our use of oil;o)
 
Tripp out.
 

 

The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Tue, 8/17/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:


From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:51 PM


I gather from the lack of response to my post inquiring about adopting some 
more universally acceptable methods of discourse on this list that there 
isn't  much interest in pursuing that.

In the spirit of the discourse that is actually going on, I'd like to join  
in.  "Boy's rules," right?  Competitive jabs just fine - especially if  we 
pat each other on the back and make up afterwards?  (In case you think  I'm 
making this up, there's good research on men's and women's different styles  
of communication - women on average tend to prefer the cooperative and  
consensual  -- not all women of course -- and perhaps women's average style  
isn't better, but it's definitely different).

But I can play the sporty guy game too.  Every woman who's successful  in 
business, professional life or academia in North America or Europe has had to 
learn it -- and unfortunately way too few men have been interested in 
learning  the art of more consensual/non-competitive discourse.

So let me shoot from the hip here: tough guy, clever jabs are fun for many  
men and a few women but are frequently off-putting for those not raised to  
enjoy this kind of "violent" and attacking dialogue.  I'm Canadian,  and at 
least when I was growing up, Canadians (both male and female) thought  this 
kind of cowboy discourse was pretty crude and very American. But I admit  
it's sometimes more entertaining than traditional Canadian politeness.  Of  
course as Michael Moore has pointed out so cleverly, even though Canadians 
have  as many guns as Americans, they don't tend to shoot people.

My concern about this conversational climate is about the people it  
excludes. For example, how many other women are regular posters on this  
list?  
Come to that, I wonder how many women or minority folk are at  the "top 
table" 
in permaculture?  Thank god/goddess for Robyn Francis,  Penny 
Livingston-Stark, Starhawk and my other heroines, but still?  There  was 
recently a 
meeting of West Coast Women in Permaculture (which I  unfortunately missed) 
and I 
was curious why women were feeling the need to  separate themselves out 
from the rest of permaculture and what issues they might  want to explore?

I'm a long time poster on another list about green issues and, sadly, this  
competitive, jabbing style of discourse has effectively driven away most of 
the  women, who ended up forming their own list as a place where they could 
talk  their own language and discuss the topic at hand in a different 
manner.  It  would be very sad if this happened to permaculture as well, 
which is 
why I keep  wondering if we can adopt a more inclusive way of communicating 
with each other  as part of our People Care and Fair Share ethics.

And lest you think this is just a problem for women, there are men from  
other cultures who also find the competitive, put-down style of conversation  
unpleasant.  This is a big world, with many different cultures.   
Permaculture is so important for human survival; I believe that a more  
sensitive and 
neutral way of communicating with each other would benefit  permaculture -- 
and the many people around the world who need it -- in the long  run.

So now -- I'm open for returning jabs.

Linda


In a message dated 8/16/2010 9:42:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net writes:

On  8/16/2010 11:46 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> Lawrence, what in god's name  are you on about?
>
> Is it really so beyond the pale that I hold  a position that
> it's strategically not a good idea to do PDCs for  white power groups?
> Really?
>
> People have made good  arguments, some better than others, as to why
> it actually WOULD be ok.  I've read them with genuine interest.
> In contrast, you seem to be  outraged that I would even have the temerity 
to voice
> my position. You  may think I'm wrong, but you are writing like my 
position
> is not only  totally fucking bonkers, but that I'm literally trying to 
TAKE OVER  AND
> DESTROY Permaculture just by asserting this position.  Huh?

Sorry, Rafter. I was just blowing off steam and, I'll admit,  challenging 
you with some of my pet ideas. Don't be concerned about it.  You 
certainly don't need my acid-tongued sarcasm, eh :-) See it as  just
my usual kicking the tires way of list management. Its always a  learning 
process for me, just exactly what do I need to do to keep  this
forum a world class resource and as useful to people as it can  possibly 
be; tweak the dialog and stimulate the best from everyone, and  smoke the 
lurkers out of the woodworks. The answer to that is obvious, a  
hands-off, benevolent neglect approach. This has become a habit for me  
since 1992. But I have surely learned from this last debate and a few in  
recent past too. I'll take a new tack in the future
and use a better  choice of words. I just wasn't think things through 
completely enough. Its  also the times we are in and the political winds 
that blow into every  crevice of one's life; the rhetoric, the 
divisiveness, the ploys and  outright lies.

Onward, down our respective paths through the deep  permaculture  forest.


...:LL
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>From LBUZZELL@aol.com  Thu Aug 19 15:14:59 2010
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
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Hi Cory and everyone,

On the military using permaculture for purposes that might conflict with
PmC ethics, a few previous posters have spelled those dangers in great
detail so I won't repeat it here.  I'm certainly no expert on CIA thinking  or
military/corporate strategy during occupations, but I'm also not naive enough
to believe that the introduction of new agricultural methods by an
occupying  army has no ulterior motive.

Also, previous posters have speculated that if permaculture is introduced
to a culture by an unpopular occupying army, this negative attitude towards
permaculture might endanger future permaculture teachers in that area.  I
have no information that this has ever happened, but logically I think it's
a  possible result to consider.

Linda


In a message dated 8/19/2010 11:58:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
cory8570@yahoo.com writes:

Could  you give an example of what you're thinking when you say "it might
also be  true that the military system could use permaculture for  purposes
that  might conflict with PmC ethics and Afghanis might resent PmC for  that
reason or even attack future permaculture teachers who arrived in their
country."

Like spell out a scenario? It will be easier to  discuss ethics if we can
narrow down differences and get into specifics.  Examples that actually
occurred would be the best.

Cory

--- On Thu, 8/19/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>  wrote:

> From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a  Movement)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday,  August 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
> I agree that this is an important
>  discussion.
>
> One thing I've noticed is that those who  are uncomfortable
> with the idea of
>  teaching  permaculture in an official military context seem
> to focus on the
>  organization/ecosystem, while those who defend teaching
>  permaculture to
> "everyone" seem to focus on individuals.   Sort of like
> the forest and the
> trees?  Would it  be possible to adopt a "yes/and"
> approach, where we look  at
> both?
>
> For example, I can see how if I were an  individual soldier
> or an individual
>  Afghani farmer I  might benefit from the opportunity to
> learn permaculture,
>  but  it might also be true that the military system
> could use  permaculture
> for  purposes that might conflict with PmC ethics  and
> Afghanis might resent
> PmC for  that reason or even  attack future
> permaculture teachers who arrived
> in  their  country.  It's very complicated!
>
> I  don't see a way to simplify this into a simple "rule" --
> "teach PmC  to
> anyone and everyone who's interested"  or "don't  teach
> PmC to military
> organizations that might misuse  it for nasty purposes." So
> how do we make our
> ethical  decisions?
>
> Linda
>
>
>  In a message dated 8/19/2010 10:59:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight
>  Time,
> cory8570@yahoo.com
> writes:
>
>  "Permaculture is a revolution disguised as
> gardening."   That  is a
> succinct way to describe the movement that  carries with it
> many  implications. I've
> told that to  people on virtually every point of the
> political spectrum and
> they actually get it - they get that permaculture
>  offers individual
> freedom and quality of life, a way out from under  the
> thumb  of the oppressor
> (whoever they may feel that  is), and a healthier way to
> live.
>
> Permaculture  can be forwarded by any group, and it is up to
> those of  us
> that understand the subject to ensure that inaccurate
>  information about it  is
> corrected. There are a number of ways  to achieve that that
> have been
> mentioned here. I feel  that is an important discussion -
> how should we keep  the
> subject accurate, as it leaks out into the mainstream and
>  various other
> groups?  It is inevitable that it will, so  why try to
> stop it?  What  we really
> need to do is  control the accuracy of the subject.
>
> The  most  active permaculturists on this list tend
> toward the left/hippie
> modality,  but as others have mentioned, there are
>  permaculturists at any
> political  spectrum.
>
> I  find the discussions about excluding people from
> the  "movement"  simply
> because of where they work (like the army), or  their
> religious affiliation,
> or political affiliation,  etc, to be a form of
> discrimination and a human
> and  civil rights violation, as well as a clear lack
> of understanding  of the
> ethics of "people care."
>
> Who here  thinks  that people care means "only the
> people I personally  agree
> with?"  or  "only the people I personally  feel
> are worthy of being exposed
> to natural   principles?"  or "only the people I
> personally think could
> possibly  understand these natural principles, even
>  though they are universally
> understood by all living being, on  a visceral level, when
> they actually
> listen  to  themselves?"
>
> I think it is incredibly egoistic to  assume that  any
> of us knows best who
> should be exposed  to this knowledge, or that they
> could possibly predict
>  how it might affect them, change them, enlighten
> them,  increase  their ability
> to be ethical and decent human beings, etc.
>
> Haven't we all been through paradigm shift in some way  or
> other? For  many
> of us it has been a gut wrenching  experience. For me, it is
> a life long
> journey which  delves ever deeper. I would feel terrible if
> I denied someone
> else the opportunity to explore those depths, simply
> because  of some
> unexamined prejudice I have about some group they  belong
> to. I personally know
> someone who used to be  "Aryan race" proponent who saw the
> light and completely
>  reformed and is now a civil rights activist for minorities.
> There is a  25
> year  career ex-Army guy in the PDC I'm giving right
>  now at Pine Ridge Lakota
> reservation that is turning himself  inside out to help Pine
> Ridge.
>
> ANYTHING can  happen, guys, people are very volatile
>  beings.
>
> I use very hands on methods of  teaching  permaculture
> that takes people
> outside of  their paradigm and puts them in  touch with
> the natural world on
> that visceral level - such as Tom Brown  techniques,
>  etc. I have personally
> witnessed massive paradigm shifts so I  know  it can be
> done, even if a person
> is immersed in  the "corporate" or "army"  paradigm.
> Those are the people we
> need to reach most. Some of us embrace that
> challenge,  and some of us want
> nothing to do with it.  Great!   I'm  all for
> diversity, but please don't try
> to tell  another experienced  permaculturist who they
> should talk to about
> permaculture, when you don't even  know them or the
>  situation.
>
> Best, Cory
>
>
> --- On Mon,  8/16/10,  Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>  wrote:
>
> > From: Toby  Hemenway  <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Subject: Re:  [permaculture]  Movement thinking
> (was Designing a  Movement)
> > To: "permaculture"   <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Monday, August 16,  2010,  8:41 PM
> > Rafter-- as usual, I get and
> >  appreciate what you say  and the tone in which
> you say  it,
> > and take it in the kind spirit it is  given. I
>  agree that I
> > oversimplified and showed a lot of bias in  my
> description of
> > what movements are. Mostly  because I see little
> upside,  and
> > a lot of downside,  to permaculture being regarded as
> a
> >  movement. There  have been many memorable and
> effective
> > movements,  of  course: civil rights, anti-war,
> anti-abortion,
> >  German National  Socialism, and others all over
> the map.
>  > Movements attract . . . what's  a polite word for
>  fanatic?
> > Perhaps activist is. Some do immense good,   some
> immense
> > harm. Some movements increase the rights of  one group
> at  the
> > expense of others. Some do better  than that. Civil
> rights  is
> > the broadest and best  model I can think of.
> >
> > But  almost any  movement comes with its own
> political
> > framework and  can  usually be placed in a fairly
> small region
> > of  the political spectrum.  If we look at
> permaculture as a
>  > movement, it's in the quite left-wing,
>  Earth-worshipping,
> > hippie-descended, middle and upper middle  class,
> etc, etc,
> > region, with a modest number of  outliers included.
> A  narrow
> > slice. Who else would  even be arguing about working
> with  the
> >  army?
> >
> > So what are the odds of a movement like   this
> getting a wide
> > reception? To anyone outside of  permaculture's
> primary
> > political clique, the  "movement" baggage poses a huge
> >  hurdle. It's possible that  as a movement
> permaculture can do
> > the same  for  ecological consciousness that the
> civil rights
> > movement  did for  racial consciousness. But there
> are some
> >  big differences. The civil  rights movement as a
> whole  was
> > not a methodology or a set of  principles; it
>  wasn't
> > primarily holding classes or looking to be
>  taught in
> > universities. It had one easily grasped central
>  point:  equal
> > rights for all races. We can't define our  central
> point,  if
> > we have one, in less than a fat  black book or a
> two-week
> >  course. And a politicized  movement is not going
> to be
> > invited into  schools or  local governments or
> churches or
> > other institutions  except  in those instances
> where the
> > politics of the  institution match that of
> permaculture
> > activists.  Civil rights had to batter its way in, at
> a  very
> >  high personal cost t
> >  o many. Is that what we want  to  do? I
> think that is an
> > unnecessarily difficult road for  us to take;  the
> design
> > standpoint will reach people  much more quickly.
> Permaculture
> > as a movement won't  be invited anywhere that the
> politics  or
> >  socio-economic groundings don't match the movement's.
> A
>  >  design approach, however, will be welcomed
> almost  anywhere.
> > That's why  I'd like to see the design side  of
> permaculture
> > emphasized over the  movement  aspect.
> >
> > Also, I don't see the ethical basis  of
> permaculture as an
> > impediment. Who is going to  argue against caring
> for the
> > Earth and people? The  ethics are bland enough to
> appeal  to
> > all. The fact  that permaculture involves ethics is
> quite
> >  radical,  but even very conservative groups grasp
> the need
> > for  ethical  guidelines. That part can have wide
> appeal. A
>  > left-ish movement  doesn't.
> >
> > I do often  think of myself as part of a
> movement--who
> > doesn't  want to belong to a tribe? But political
> movement
> >  design and process are very different from those
> of  an
>  > ecological design system. Maybe our failure to
> identify  and
> >  deal with the distinction is why permaculture
>  has made so
> > little  progress in 30 years. I think there  are
> some good
> > things to be learned  from pursuing  this a bit.
> >
> > Toby
> >   http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> >
>  > On Aug 16, 2010,  at 4:28 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Toby,
> > >
> > > As  usual, I'm crazy about your response, in
> tone,
> >   quality of thinking, and content.
> > >
> > > All  except for  the third paragraph where,
> for reasons
> > I  can't fathom, you  redefine
> > > the concept of  "movement"  - and by
> implication,
> > movement  participants -
> > > as simpleton  ideological cliques. It  bears
> no relation
> > to any recognizable
> >   > definition of social movement.
> > >
> > > Why,  Toby,  why? [insert wringing of hands]
> > >
> >  > Why work to isolate  Pc from the inspiring
> history,  and
> > critical present-day
> > >  reality of  global social movements?
> Advocate for your
> > vision of  Pc,  please.
> > > It's needed. Plus I mostly agree with you.  ;)
> >  >
> > > But don't paint this distorted  picture of social
> >  movements.
> > >
>  > > Do I agree with you about avoiding
> evangelism,
>  > self-righteousness,
> > > and "purity vs.  pollution"  thinking?
> Absolutely. And
> > the distribution of  these
> >  > traits - on this list alone! - makes it
>  clear that
> > there is no  correlation with
> > >  the trait of movement thinking.
> > >
> > >  Permaculture is a design approach and a movement
> at
> >  the  very same time - if you use
> > > a recognizable  definition of  movement. (I
> guess I'm
> > camping in  both of your camps.)
> > >
> > > It is  certainly not unique among movements. It's
> a
> >  fellow  traveller with many other
> > > examples of: large numbers  of  people
> working together
> > in a more-or-less  organized,
> > >  more-or-less spontaneous fashion, to  make
> the world
> > safe, just, and  sustainable. (Check  out
> Hawken's
> > > Blessed Unrest to see this point   made in
> vastly more
> > detail.) Like other grassroots  movements,  it's
> > > not pure, it's not objective, and to  the degree
> that
> >  it's adherents are self-righteous  evangelical
> > > nincompoops, it  will fail!
> >  >
> > > Every significant historical gain in
>  freedom,
> > worldwide, has been fought for and won -
> >  > not  through some idealized, objective,
> design
> >  practice, but through messy,  difficult social
> movements.
>  > > Furthermore, they've been fought for  with
> tactics  of
> > disruptive protest, among other tools in the
>  toolbox.
> > > It's bad form, to say the least, for white  males
> in
> > the  North, like you and me, to foster  ignorance
> of that
> > fact.
> > >
>  > > Likewise for so much of the significant defenses
> of
>  >  ecological health that we've been able to
> accomplish -
> > > c.f. the  success of the disruptive,
>  law-breaking,
> > anti-nuke movement here at  home. Do you  think
> > > that we'll get decent climate treaties,  or
> stop
> > mountaintop removal mining, without
>  > > the pressure  brought to bear by disruptive
>  protest,
> > and the movements that
> >  > make it  happen? History tells us,
> decisively, "No."
> > >
>  >  > We can't do an end-run around the need to
> think  about
> > the  Permaculture milieu as a whole, by  focusing
> > > on practice alone.  And we need to  regard
> ourselves,
> > our whole movement, as part of a   greater whole
> -
> > > and not only ecologically. We do  this so that
> we  don't
> > isolate ourselves from our  fellow travelers, so we
> > >  can share the crucial and  unique resources
> that we
> > bring, with the  folks most  prepared to make good
> use of
> > them.
> > >
> >  > And also because we need those other
>  movements that we
> > are making  this path with.
> >  > Permaculture alone won't get us the world
> we  want -  a
> > world that's worth living in.
> > >
> >  >  Thank for all your incredible
> contributions, Toby.  I'm
> > confident that  you will receive this in
> >  > the spirit of collegiality and respect  in
> which it  is
> > intended.
> > >
> > > Best,
>  > >  Rafter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  rafter sass
> > >  liberationecology.org
> > >
> > >>  From:  Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > >>  Date:  August 16, 2010 10:38:59 AM EDT
> > >> To:  permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >  >> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Designing a
>  Movement
> > (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >  >>  Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  >  >>
> > >>
> > >> rafter  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Teaching Pc for,  and to, white
> nationalists,
> >  would be bad for the  movement.
> > >>
> > >> I think  this  gets to one of the central
> confusions
> > of this discussion,  and why  at times we are
> talking past
> > each other  (and BTW, I know someone who  taught a
> PDC for
> > white  ideologists, who told me that a lot of
> important
> >  insights came out--for the instructor as well).
> >  >>
> > >> I think we fall into two camps: those
> who   view
> > permaculture as a movement, and those who view it as
>  a
> >  design approach. Of course, most of us--myself
>  > included--hold portions  of both views, but I
> think one  will
> > predominate in each person.
> > >>
> > >> If you think of Pc as a movement, then
> we   are
> > activists who are trying to transform people's view  of
> the
> >  world, and we need everyone to see it our  way.
> We are right.
> >  Permaculture is then a  worldview, an ideology of
> sorts, and
> > people  need to  do it our way, or the wrong side
> will win.
> > And our  ideology  needs to remain pure and
> uncorrupted.
> > If  the wrong people  infiltrate us, permaculture
> will become
>  > tainted, ruined, and it will  turn into something
> we  don't
> > want. You are either following it or not;   you're
> with us or
> > against us, and if you are against us,  you need
> to  be
> > transformed.You can see that I don't  like the idea of
> Pc
> >  being a movement, even though  I'm often caught
> up in its
> > evangelical  qualities.  And it's not a big step
> from being a
> > movement to being  a  cult, which some accuse
> permaculture of
> > being.  Some of the arguments  made here are
> almost cult-like:
>  > we have secret knowledge that needs to  be kept
> from the  army
> > or they will do harm with it.
> > >>
> > >> Or the other view: If permaculture is a
>  design
> >  approach, then at its essence it is a set of
>  tools for
> > Earth- and  people-care that is not dependent  on
> belief or
> > ideology. It can't be  corrupted  because its use
> either does
> > or doesn't follow the ethics  and  principles, and
> it stops
> > being permaculture  when those are not being
> adhered to. Or
> > at least we  can say it is a poor or incomplete
> use  of
> >  permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a
> poor
>  >  one. You use the principles in your work or you
> don't.  You
> > use  ecological and social metrics to assess
>  whether you've
> > been  successful: As biodiversity up? Are  people
> healthy?
> > This puts the  responsibility on the  user, and
> not on
> > permaculture as a movement that   may be corrupted
> by bad
> > people.
> > >>
> > >>  Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here:
> We  don't DO
> > permaculture, we  USE permaculture in what we  do.
> Activists
> > in a movement do  permaculture.  Designers use
> permaculture in
> > what they do. If the  army  uses permaculture, it
> will result
> > in Earth  care and people care. If it  doesn't
> have that
> >  result, then they aren't using permaculture;
> they  are
>  > ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to
> yet
>  >  another tool they have made poor use of. If we
> don't  teach
> > them  permaculture, there is no chance of them
>  doing the good
> > it can do. It  cannot make them worse, in  my
> view. It will
> > either be abandoned by  them, or it  will make
> them good
> > designers of healthy systems.
>  >  >>
> > >> Again, I think "go where you  are
> invited"  applies.
> > I have no intention of trying  to transform the
> army  with
> > permaculture: that's  ideology.  But if they come
> to  me
> > to ask how  they can use permaculture to have
> ecologically
> >  and  socially successful and sound projects, I'll
> be there.
> >  The student  must be ready for the teacher, or
> there will  be
> > no learning.
> >  >>
> >  >> And incidentally, I've really
> appreciated  what
>  > Rafter and manyy others have written here, especially
> the
>  >  Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a thought
> provoking  thread.
> >
> >  >>
> > >> And,  Cory and all: Permaculture is
> already  being
> > taught  in over 25 universities in the US alone, at
> last
> >   count.
> > >>
> > >> And: I absolutely approve,  as Kevin
> suggested, of
> > making the ethics,  principles, and curriculum
> much  clearer
> > and less  subject to wild interpretations. Hence the
> need  for
> >  organizations that link permaculturists together,
> > >>
> > >> Toby
> > >>  http://patternliteracy.com
> >  >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 12,  2010, at 2:55  PM, rafter
> sass wrote:
> > >>
> >  >>
> > >>
>  _______________________________________________
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> > >>   permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > >
> >  >
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