permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Could you give an example of what you're thinking when you say "it might also 
be true that the military system could use permaculture for  purposes that 
might conflict with PmC ethics and Afghanis might resent PmC for  that reason 
or even attack future permaculture teachers who arrived in their  country."  

Like spell out a scenario? It will be easier to discuss ethics if we can 
narrow down differences and get into specifics. Examples that actually 
occurred would be the best. 

Cory  

--- On Thu, 8/19/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:

> From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
> I agree that this is an important
> discussion.
>  
> One thing I've noticed is that those who are uncomfortable
> with the idea of 
>  teaching permaculture in an official military context seem
> to focus on the 
>  organization/ecosystem, while those who defend teaching
> permaculture to  
> "everyone" seem to focus on individuals.  Sort of like
> the forest and the  
> trees?  Would it be possible to adopt a "yes/and"
> approach, where we look  at 
> both?
>  
> For example, I can see how if I were an individual soldier
> or an individual 
>  Afghani farmer I might benefit from the opportunity to
> learn permaculture, 
> but  it might also be true that the military system
> could use permaculture 
> for  purposes that might conflict with PmC ethics and
> Afghanis might resent 
> PmC for  that reason or even attack future
> permaculture teachers who arrived 
> in their  country.  It's very complicated! 
>  
> I don't see a way to simplify this into a simple "rule" --
> "teach PmC to  
> anyone and everyone who's interested"  or "don't teach
> PmC to military  
> organizations that might misuse it for nasty purposes." So
> how do we make our  
> ethical decisions?
>  
> Linda
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/19/2010 10:59:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time,  
> cory8570@yahoo.com
> writes:
> 
> "Permaculture is a revolution disguised as
> gardening."  That  is a  
> succinct way to describe the movement that carries with it
> many  implications. I've 
> told that to people on virtually every point of the 
> political spectrum and 
> they actually get it - they get that permaculture 
> offers individual 
> freedom and quality of life, a way out from under the
> thumb  of the oppressor 
> (whoever they may feel that is), and a healthier way to
> live.  
> 
> Permaculture can be forwarded by any group, and it is up to
> those of  us 
> that understand the subject to ensure that inaccurate
> information about it  is 
> corrected. There are a number of ways to achieve that that
> have been  
> mentioned here. I feel that is an important discussion -
> how should we keep  the 
> subject accurate, as it leaks out into the mainstream and
> various other  
> groups?  It is inevitable that it will, so why try to
> stop it?  What  we really 
> need to do is control the accuracy of the subject.  
> 
> The  most active permaculturists on this list tend
> toward the left/hippie 
> modality,  but as others have mentioned, there are
> permaculturists at any 
> political  spectrum. 
> 
> I find the discussions about excluding people from
> the  "movement" simply 
> because of where they work (like the army), or their 
> religious affiliation, 
> or political affiliation, etc, to be a form of 
> discrimination and a human 
> and civil rights violation, as well as a clear lack 
> of understanding of the 
> ethics of "people care."  
> 
> Who here thinks  that people care means "only the
> people I personally agree 
> with?"  or  "only the people I personally feel
> are worthy of being exposed 
> to natural  principles?"  or "only the people I
> personally think could 
> possibly  understand these natural principles, even
> though they are universally  
> understood by all living being, on a visceral level, when
> they actually 
> listen  to themselves?"  
> 
> I think it is incredibly egoistic to assume that  any
> of us knows best who 
> should be exposed to this knowledge, or that they 
> could possibly predict 
> how it might affect them, change them, enlighten
> them,  increase their ability 
> to be ethical and decent human beings, etc.  
> 
> Haven't we all been through paradigm shift in some way or
> other? For  many 
> of us it has been a gut wrenching experience. For me, it is
> a life long  
> journey which delves ever deeper. I would feel terrible if
> I denied someone  
> else the opportunity to explore those depths, simply
> because of some  
> unexamined prejudice I have about some group they belong
> to. I personally know  
> someone who used to be "Aryan race" proponent who saw the
> light and completely  
> reformed and is now a civil rights activist for minorities.
> There is a 25 
> year  career ex-Army guy in the PDC I'm giving right
> now at Pine Ridge Lakota  
> reservation that is turning himself inside out to help Pine
> Ridge.  
> 
> ANYTHING can happen, guys, people are very volatile 
> beings.   
> 
> I use very hands on methods of teaching  permaculture
> that takes people 
> outside of their paradigm and puts them in  touch with
> the natural world on 
> that visceral level - such as Tom Brown  techniques,
> etc. I have personally 
> witnessed massive paradigm shifts so I know  it can be
> done, even if a person 
> is immersed in the "corporate" or "army"  paradigm.
> Those are the people we 
> need to reach most. Some of us embrace that 
> challenge, and some of us want 
> nothing to do with it.  Great!  I'm  all for
> diversity, but please don't try 
> to tell another experienced  permaculturist who they
> should talk to about 
> permaculture, when you don't even  know them or the
> situation. 
> 
> Best, Cory
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 8/16/10,  Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Toby  Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture]  Movement thinking
> (was Designing a Movement)
> > To: "permaculture"  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010,  8:41 PM
> > Rafter-- as usual, I get and
> > appreciate what you say  and the tone in which
> you say it,
> > and take it in the kind spirit it is  given. I
> agree that I
> > oversimplified and showed a lot of bias in my 
> description of
> > what movements are. Mostly because I see little
> upside,  and
> > a lot of downside, to permaculture being regarded as
> a
> >  movement. There have been many memorable and
> effective
> > movements, of  course: civil rights, anti-war,
> anti-abortion,
> > German National  Socialism, and others all over
> the map.
> > Movements attract . . . what's  a polite word for
> fanatic?
> > Perhaps activist is. Some do immense good,  some
> immense
> > harm. Some movements increase the rights of one group
> at  the
> > expense of others. Some do better than that. Civil
> rights  is
> > the broadest and best model I can think of. 
> > 
> > But  almost any movement comes with its own
> political
> > framework and can  usually be placed in a fairly
> small region
> > of the political spectrum.  If we look at
> permaculture as a
> > movement, it's in the quite left-wing, 
> Earth-worshipping,
> > hippie-descended, middle and upper middle class, 
> etc, etc,
> > region, with a modest number of outliers included.
> A  narrow
> > slice. Who else would even be arguing about working
> with  the
> > army?
> > 
> > So what are the odds of a movement like  this
> getting a wide
> > reception? To anyone outside of permaculture's 
> primary
> > political clique, the "movement" baggage poses a huge
> >  hurdle. It's possible that as a movement
> permaculture can do
> > the same  for ecological consciousness that the
> civil rights
> > movement did for  racial consciousness. But there
> are some
> > big differences. The civil  rights movement as a
> whole was
> > not a methodology or a set of  principles; it
> wasn't
> > primarily holding classes or looking to be 
> taught in
> > universities. It had one easily grasped central
> point:  equal
> > rights for all races. We can't define our central
> point,  if
> > we have one, in less than a fat black book or a
> two-week
> >  course. And a politicized movement is not going
> to be
> > invited into  schools or local governments or
> churches or
> > other institutions except  in those instances
> where the
> > politics of the institution match that of 
> permaculture
> > activists. Civil rights had to batter its way in, at
> a  very
> > high personal cost t
> >  o many. Is that what we want  to do? I
> think that is an
> > unnecessarily difficult road for us to take;  the
> design
> > standpoint will reach people much more quickly. 
> Permaculture
> > as a movement won't be invited anywhere that the
> politics  or
> > socio-economic groundings don't match the movement's.
> A
> >  design approach, however, will be welcomed
> almost anywhere.
> > That's why  I'd like to see the design side of
> permaculture
> > emphasized over the  movement aspect.
> > 
> > Also, I don't see the ethical basis of 
> permaculture as an
> > impediment. Who is going to argue against caring 
> for the
> > Earth and people? The ethics are bland enough to
> appeal  to
> > all. The fact that permaculture involves ethics is
> quite
> >  radical, but even very conservative groups grasp
> the need
> > for ethical  guidelines. That part can have wide
> appeal. A
> > left-ish movement  doesn't.
> > 
> > I do often think of myself as part of a 
> movement--who
> > doesn't want to belong to a tribe? But political 
> movement
> > design and process are very different from those
> of  an
> > ecological design system. Maybe our failure to
> identify and
> >  deal with the distinction is why permaculture
> has made so
> > little  progress in 30 years. I think there are
> some good
> > things to be learned  from pursuing this a bit.
> > 
> > Toby
> >  http://patternliteracy.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Aug 16, 2010,  at 4:28 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> > 
> > > Hey Toby,
> > >  
> > > As usual, I'm crazy about your response, in
> tone,
> >  quality of thinking, and content.
> > > 
> > > All except for  the third paragraph where,
> for reasons
> > I can't fathom, you  redefine
> > > the concept of "movement"  - and by 
> implication,
> > movement participants -
> > > as simpleton  ideological cliques. It bears
> no relation
> > to any recognizable
> >  > definition of social movement. 
> > > 
> > > Why, Toby,  why? [insert wringing of hands]
> > > 
> > > Why work to isolate  Pc from the inspiring
> history, and
> > critical present-day
> > >  reality of global social movements?
> Advocate for your
> > vision of Pc,  please.
> > > It's needed. Plus I mostly agree with you. ;) 
> >  > 
> > > But don't paint this distorted picture of social
> >  movements. 
> > > 
> > > Do I agree with you about avoiding 
> evangelism,
> > self-righteousness,
> > > and "purity vs.  pollution" thinking?
> Absolutely. And
> > the distribution of these
> >  > traits - on this list alone! - makes it
> clear that
> > there is no  correlation with 
> > > the trait of movement thinking. 
> > >  
> > > Permaculture is a design approach and a movement
> at
> > the  very same time - if you use
> > > a recognizable definition of  movement. (I
> guess I'm
> > camping in both of your camps.) 
> > >  
> > > It is certainly not unique among movements. It's
> a
> >  fellow traveller with many other 
> > > examples of: large numbers of  people
> working together
> > in a more-or-less organized, 
> > >  more-or-less spontaneous fashion, to make
> the world
> > safe, just, and  sustainable. (Check out
> Hawken's
> > > Blessed Unrest to see this point  made in
> vastly more
> > detail.) Like other grassroots movements,  it's
> > > not pure, it's not objective, and to the degree
> that
> >  it's adherents are self-righteous evangelical
> > > nincompoops, it  will fail!
> > > 
> > > Every significant historical gain in 
> freedom,
> > worldwide, has been fought for and won -
> > > not  through some idealized, objective,
> design
> > practice, but through messy,  difficult social
> movements.
> > > Furthermore, they've been fought for  with
> tactics of
> > disruptive protest, among other tools in the
> toolbox.  
> > > It's bad form, to say the least, for white males
> in
> > the  North, like you and me, to foster ignorance
> of that
> > fact.
> > >  
> > > Likewise for so much of the significant defenses
> of
> >  ecological health that we've been able to
> accomplish - 
> > > c.f. the  success of the disruptive,
> law-breaking,
> > anti-nuke movement here at  home. Do you think
> > > that we'll get decent climate treaties, or 
> stop
> > mountaintop removal mining, without
> > > the pressure  brought to bear by disruptive
> protest,
> > and the movements that 
> >  > make it happen? History tells us,
> decisively, "No."
> > > 
> >  > We can't do an end-run around the need to
> think about
> > the  Permaculture milieu as a whole, by focusing
> > > on practice alone.  And we need to regard
> ourselves,
> > our whole movement, as part of a  greater whole
> -
> > > and not only ecologically. We do this so that
> we  don't
> > isolate ourselves from our fellow travelers, so we 
> > >  can share the crucial and unique resources
> that we
> > bring, with the  folks most prepared to make good
> use of
> > them. 
> > > 
> >  > And also because we need those other
> movements that we
> > are making  this path with. 
> > > Permaculture alone won't get us the world
> we  want - a
> > world that's worth living in.
> > > 
> > >  Thank for all your incredible
> contributions, Toby. I'm
> > confident that  you will receive this in 
> > > the spirit of collegiality and respect  in
> which it is
> > intended.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > >  Rafter
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  rafter sass
> > > liberationecology.org
> > > 
> > >>  From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > >> Date:  August 16, 2010 10:38:59 AM EDT
> > >> To: permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Designing a
> Movement
> > (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >  >> Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >  >> 
> > >> 
> > >> rafter wrote:
> > >>  
> > >>> Teaching Pc for, and to, white
> nationalists,
> >  would be bad for the movement. 
> > >> 
> > >> I think  this gets to one of the central
> confusions
> > of this discussion, and why  at times we are
> talking past
> > each other (and BTW, I know someone who  taught a
> PDC for
> > white ideologists, who told me that a lot of 
> important
> > insights came out--for the instructor as well). 
> >  >> 
> > >> I think we fall into two camps: those
> who  view
> > permaculture as a movement, and those who view it as
> a
> >  design approach. Of course, most of us--myself
> > included--hold portions  of both views, but I
> think one will
> > predominate in each person.  
> > >> 
> > >> If you think of Pc as a movement, then
> we  are
> > activists who are trying to transform people's view of
> the
> >  world, and we need everyone to see it our way.
> We are right.
> >  Permaculture is then a worldview, an ideology of
> sorts, and
> > people  need to do it our way, or the wrong side
> will win.
> > And our ideology  needs to remain pure and
> uncorrupted. 
> > If the wrong people  infiltrate us, permaculture
> will become
> > tainted, ruined, and it will  turn into something
> we don't
> > want. You are either following it or not;  you're
> with us or
> > against us, and if you are against us, you need
> to  be
> > transformed.You can see that I don't like the idea of
> Pc
> >  being a movement, even though I'm often caught
> up in its
> > evangelical  qualities. And it's not a big step
> from being a
> > movement to being a  cult, which some accuse
> permaculture of
> > being. Some of the arguments  made here are
> almost cult-like:
> > we have secret knowledge that needs to  be kept
> from the army
> > or they will do harm with it. 
> > >>  
> > >> Or the other view: If permaculture is a
> design
> >  approach, then at its essence it is a set of
> tools for
> > Earth- and  people-care that is not dependent on
> belief or
> > ideology. It can't be  corrupted because its use
> either does
> > or doesn't follow the ethics and  principles, and
> it stops
> > being permaculture when those are not being 
> adhered to. Or
> > at least we can say it is a poor or incomplete
> use  of
> > permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a
> poor
> >  one. You use the principles in your work or you
> don't. You
> > use  ecological and social metrics to assess
> whether you've
> > been  successful: As biodiversity up? Are people
> healthy?
> > This puts the  responsibility on the user, and
> not on
> > permaculture as a movement that  may be corrupted
> by bad
> > people.
> > >> 
> > >>  Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here:
> We don't DO
> > permaculture, we  USE permaculture in what we do.
> Activists
> > in a movement do  permaculture. Designers use
> permaculture in
> > what they do. If the army  uses permaculture, it
> will result
> > in Earth care and people care. If it  doesn't
> have that
> > result, then they aren't using permaculture;
> they  are
> > ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to
> yet
> >  another tool they have made poor use of. If we
> don't teach
> > them  permaculture, there is no chance of them
> doing the good
> > it can do. It  cannot make them worse, in my
> view. It will
> > either be abandoned by  them, or it will make
> them good
> > designers of healthy systems.
> >  >> 
> > >> Again, I think "go where you are
> invited"  applies.
> > I have no intention of trying to transform the
> army  with
> > permaculture: that's ideology.  But if they come
> to  me
> > to ask how they can use permaculture to have
> ecologically
> >  and socially successful and sound projects, I'll
> be there.
> > The student  must be ready for the teacher, or
> there will be
> > no learning. 
> >  >> 
> > >> And incidentally, I've really
> appreciated  what
> > Rafter and manyy others have written here, especially
> the
> >  Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a thought
> provoking thread.
> > 
> >  >> 
> > >> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is
> already  being
> > taught in over 25 universities in the US alone, at
> last
> >  count.
> > >> 
> > >> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin 
> suggested, of
> > making the ethics, principles, and curriculum
> much  clearer
> > and less subject to wild interpretations. Hence the
> need  for
> > organizations that link permaculturists together,
> > >>  
> > >> Toby
> > >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >  >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> On Aug 12,  2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter
> sass wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>  
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
> >  >> permaculture mailing list
> > >>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > 
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