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  • From: LBUZZELL@aol.com
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
  • Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:51:40 EDT

I gather from the lack of response to my post inquiring about adopting some
more universally acceptable methods of discourse on this list that there
isn't much interest in pursuing that.

In the spirit of the discourse that is actually going on, I'd like to join
in. "Boy's rules," right? Competitive jabs just fine - especially if we
pat each other on the back and make up afterwards? (In case you think I'm
making this up, there's good research on men's and women's different styles
of communication - women on average tend to prefer the cooperative and
consensual -- not all women of course -- and perhaps women's average style
isn't better, but it's definitely different).

But I can play the sporty guy game too. Every woman who's successful in
business, professional life or academia in North America or Europe has had to
learn it -- and unfortunately way too few men have been interested in
learning the art of more consensual/non-competitive discourse.

So let me shoot from the hip here: tough guy, clever jabs are fun for many
men and a few women but are frequently off-putting for those not raised to
enjoy this kind of "violent" and attacking dialogue. I'm Canadian, and at
least when I was growing up, Canadians (both male and female) thought this
kind of cowboy discourse was pretty crude and very American. But I admit
it's sometimes more entertaining than traditional Canadian politeness. Of
course as Michael Moore has pointed out so cleverly, even though Canadians
have as many guns as Americans, they don't tend to shoot people.

My concern about this conversational climate is about the people it
excludes. For example, how many other women are regular posters on this
list?
Come to that, I wonder how many women or minority folk are at the "top
table"
in permaculture? Thank god/goddess for Robyn Francis, Penny
Livingston-Stark, Starhawk and my other heroines, but still? There was
recently a
meeting of West Coast Women in Permaculture (which I unfortunately missed)
and I
was curious why women were feeling the need to separate themselves out
from the rest of permaculture and what issues they might want to explore?

I'm a long time poster on another list about green issues and, sadly, this
competitive, jabbing style of discourse has effectively driven away most of
the women, who ended up forming their own list as a place where they could
talk their own language and discuss the topic at hand in a different
manner. It would be very sad if this happened to permaculture as well,
which is
why I keep wondering if we can adopt a more inclusive way of communicating
with each other as part of our People Care and Fair Share ethics.

And lest you think this is just a problem for women, there are men from
other cultures who also find the competitive, put-down style of conversation
unpleasant. This is a big world, with many different cultures.
Permaculture is so important for human survival; I believe that a more
sensitive and
neutral way of communicating with each other would benefit permaculture --
and the many people around the world who need it -- in the long run.

So now -- I'm open for returning jabs.

Linda


In a message dated 8/16/2010 9:42:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net writes:

On 8/16/2010 11:46 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> Lawrence, what in god's name are you on about?
>
> Is it really so beyond the pale that I hold a position that
> it's strategically not a good idea to do PDCs for white power groups?
> Really?
>
> People have made good arguments, some better than others, as to why
> it actually WOULD be ok. I've read them with genuine interest.
> In contrast, you seem to be outraged that I would even have the temerity
to voice
> my position. You may think I'm wrong, but you are writing like my
position
> is not only totally fucking bonkers, but that I'm literally trying to
TAKE OVER AND
> DESTROY Permaculture just by asserting this position. Huh?

Sorry, Rafter. I was just blowing off steam and, I'll admit, challenging
you with some of my pet ideas. Don't be concerned about it. You
certainly don't need my acid-tongued sarcasm, eh :-) See it as just
my usual kicking the tires way of list management. Its always a learning
process for me, just exactly what do I need to do to keep this
forum a world class resource and as useful to people as it can possibly
be; tweak the dialog and stimulate the best from everyone, and smoke the
lurkers out of the woodworks. The answer to that is obvious, a
hands-off, benevolent neglect approach. This has become a habit for me
since 1992. But I have surely learned from this last debate and a few in
recent past too. I'll take a new tack in the future
and use a better choice of words. I just wasn't think things through
completely enough. Its also the times we are in and the political winds
that blow into every crevice of one's life; the rhetoric, the
divisiveness, the ploys and outright lies.

Onward, down our respective paths through the deep permaculture forest.


...:LL
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