permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

I don't believe any of us are post-poning the joy of that connection.  If you 
don't feel it, you don't feel it.  Fair enough.  But I'd like to propose that 
the anti- sentiment is at least as dogmatic in nature as what I've been 
talking about.  Hard-line science and Darwinian gradualism produce a certain 
type of superiority and inherent condescension that one usually only sees in 
the certainty attending religious faith.  It's a brutal irony that afflicted 
me as recently as a year ago.
 
I think as long as we subscribe to a Cartesian dualism that delineates 
practicality and spiritual belonging-ness, we certainly will never fully 
understand the connections reported by Fukuoka, Einstein, Stamets, DaVinci, 
Newton, Galileo....not exactly a bunch of teleological flakes.
 
So I'll be sure to add that question to my interview of possible PDC 
instructors.  If you have a religious conviction that the deep and 
interconnected weavings of permaculture have nothing to do with spirit, then 
I think I'll pass.  Unfortunately, that rules Bill Mollison out.
 
I also find it interesting that the voices of some of the old-timers, who 
think of dancing and singing at permaculture gatherings as completely benign, 
are distinctly absent from this discussion.  We've got some hairs to split 
here, guys.  Don't you want in?
 
Thank you, Fran, for adding to this topic.  I have to say the speed with 
which this door keeps getting pushed closed is really interesting.
 
Tripp out.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Sun, 12/13/09, Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net> wrote:


From: Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the gardener's shadow falls both ways
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 5:04 AM


fdnokes@hotmail.com wrote:
> Conversations with plants. I'd rather steer clear of any courses than lose 
> such a precious connection.   Not that they need by mutually exclusive, 
> however.
No, and that's the point.  The point is not that we shouldn't have 
spiritual dimensions, it's that no one's particular religious or 
spiritual leanings should be forced on students (or teachers) at a PDC.  
Someone else may have a different leaning and it might be offensive to 
them at best.  At worst, it can be dangerous to base one's actions and 
decisions on superstition.  As far as I can tell, talking to plants 
never hurt anybody - I do it too. :)  But some things people do aren't 
so innocuous.

I think permaculture is inherently spiritual as it is, given that it 
stresses the interconnectedness between all things, and the aliveness 
and abundance of all things.  But it's also inherently practical, in 
that it focuses on the here and now, and the beauty of what we can 
observe right in front of us.
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Tripp Tibbetts wrote:
> I don't believe any of us are post-poning the joy of that connection.  If 
> you don't feel it, you don't feel it.  Fair enough.  But I'd like to 
> propose that the anti- sentiment is at least as dogmatic in nature as what 
> I've been talking about.  Hard-line science and Darwinian gradualism 
> produce a certain type of superiority and inherent condescension that one 
> usually only sees in the certainty attending religious faith.  It's a 
> brutal irony that afflicted me as recently as a year ago.
>

I'm not advocating "hard-line science and Darwinian gradualism."  Now
it's you who's being dualistic. ;)
>
> I think as long as we subscribe to a Cartesian dualism that delineates 
> practicality and spiritual belonging-ness, we certainly will never fully 
> understand the connections reported by Fukuoka, Einstein, Stamets, DaVinci, 
> Newton, Galileo....not exactly a bunch of teleological flakes.

Thank you for making my point for me.  ALL of those guys came to their
understanding of connectedness and spiritual belongingness *as a result
of* direct observation of the natural world.  And I'd be very surprised
if anyone came away from a PDC not having a greater spiritual awareness,
but not because anybody taught it to them directly.  Thinking
permaculturally just inherently seems to lead to that.

But how that awareness and understanding manifests itself is going to be
different among different cultures and different individuals, whereas
directly observable things will not.  If you can demonstrate something
in practical terms and it will feed people, that's something anyone can
see regardless of their cultural or individual background.  The rest
will take care of itself.

So, if a student at a PDC gets the urge to talk to plants, they should
go right ahead.  If members of the class want to organize a sub-event
like a dance or a sweatlodge, great.  But as an *instructor,* one
shouldn't force any of these things on students, but simply let that
awareness emerge and manifest itself however it does, if it does.  And
certainly as an aid worker in a vastly different culture (which a lot of
permaculturists go on to be), one should never enforce one's own
spiritual direction on anybody else.  Whatever practical good you might
do will be lost at that point.

If you feel that you have to shove spiritual awareness down somebody's
throat in order for them to "get it," then it's you who doesn't trust
that the natural world is the work of the divine and that this will
become apparent when one learns to observe its patterns.