permaculture

[Michael Snow <msnow@valley.net>]

Thank you, Bob.  I'm glad someone agrees comments like this - about  
any group - are are neither constructive, supported by historical  
evidence, or considerate.
I wonder if you are the only one on the list that noticed this - and  
disappointed that it passed so easily.

Mike


On May 19, 2007, at 1:00 AM, Robert Waldrop wrote:

> You were the one who posted racist comments in
> this list.  Don't try to segue into some kind of
> incoherent internet shouting match to distract
> attention from what you said.  If you are so sick
> of racism, then stop posting blatant racist
> bigotry in this listserv.
>
> Bob Waldrop, OKC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Naylor" <martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au>
> > AND I AM GOD DAMN SICK OF ANY RACIEST COMMENT -
> > THE YANKS INVENTED RACISM TO GIVE THEMSELVES A
> > REASON TO IMPORT BLACK SLAVES END OF STORY
> >
> >  PERMACULTURE STARTS AND ENDS IN THE HOME NOT
> > OUT SIDE
> >
> >  TELL ME EXACTLY ANY LIE THAT THIS WORLD IS NOT
> > CONTROLLED BY POLITICS AND MONEY and who exactly
> > are they I PERSONALLY DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT
> > CULTURE RELIGION CUNTRY THEY ARE FROM
> >
> >  FORGET THE THEORY THAT GOVT ADMINISTER LAW AND
> > MONEY IS A MEANS OF EXCHANGE
> >
> >  IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER BE
> > PREPARED TO DIE A DEATH OF THE WORLD AS IT USED
> > TO BE
> >
> >  What do you or anybody not understand about
> > permaculture any god damn single thing if you
> > can find anything give me you're complete data
> > base of your researches on the web or in the
> > hidden web
> >  LOVE
> >
> >  Martin
> >
> > Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop@cox.net> wrote:
> >  I've read this email several times, and I can't
> > get past the blatant anti-semitism of the first
> > paragraph. I am sad that you think so little of
> > this group and the people who read it to make
> > such
> > a racist comment in the context of a
> > permaculture
> > discussion. Racist bigotry has nothing to do
> > with
> > permaculture, if you think that it does, you
> > know
> > nothing of permaculture. Your loose talk
> > depersonalizes human beings based on race and
> > ethnicity for political motives, and that is the
> > first step towards genocide.
> >
> > Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Naylor"
> > To: "permaculture"
> >
> >
> > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 12:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Fed
> >
> >
> > > who was that clown Woodrow Wilson[and what did
> > > he say-i have just done the biggest mistake in
> > > history by giving the fucking clowns control of
> > > the financial assets of the world to the
> > > fucking
> > > Jews,just after they sent senator F. H. King on
> > > a journey around the world to report on stuff
> > > [ Farmers of 40 centuries- although i drought
> > > that,and he reported back farmers of forty
> > > centuries ] that if you get into oil deserts
> > > will increase and depletion of soil will result
> > >
> > > The reason PERMACULTURE IS NOT WIDE SPREAD IS
> > > BECAUSE MR BILL MOLLISON DECLARED WE WILL NOT
> > > BE SCUMMED BY THE AUTHORITIES -LIKE IT OR NOT -
> > >
> > > Paul Cereghino
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > "why is it that permaculture [as an example of
> > > decentralized ecological
> > > design] has such a small cult following in the
> > > US rather than having
> > > broad attention and appeal?".
> > >
> > > > I suspect because the educational system, does
> > > > not support it
> > >
> > > I learned about permaculture by going to
> > > college, and though the college
> > > didn't teach permaculture, it did teach a range
> > > of skills that I have
> > > retrofitted, and it gave me resources with
> > > which
> > > to make choices about
> > > how I apply my life energy to affect the fabric
> > > of human ecologies.
> > > There is a little of the chicken or the egg
> > > here, in that you need
> > > people who think ecological design to teach
> > > ecological design... I
> > > wonder if integration into primary and
> > > secondary
> > > education would be more
> > > powerful? Over the last 20 years there are
> > > increasing academic programs
> > > teaching 'holistic' stuff, and this is because
> > > they are competing for
> > > students who demand 'holistic' stuff. The
> > > populice and the dominant
> > > economic model doesn't support it, and the
> > > educational system is just a
> > > service provider.
> > >
> > > I want to redirect the character of this
> > > analysis -- this idea that Pc
> > > doesn't thrive because of 'them' or 'the
> > > system'. That is just the easy
> > > way out. If we are such good designers, then
> > > lets design! The problem
> > > is the solution, right... so show me! Least
> > > action greatest response?
> > > Show me! Why is it when we come to human
> > > systems
> > > we throw up our hands
> > > and say 'the system' is flawed? Perhaps we are
> > > just ignorant of the
> > > actual design context?!
> > >
> > > > there are not vast economic dependancies
> > > > associated with it, in the
> > > minds of policy makers
> > > > material returns of investors, rather than
> > > > address the investments of
> > > the natural world
> > > > you might find yourself working as a
> > > > carpenter.
> > >
> > > I think these combine -- Pc doesnt produce
> > > revenue that can be
> > > concentrated to produce a lobbying force or a
> > > political caucus.
> > > Pc offers guilt free subsistance but the
> > > potential for emotionally
> > > stressful isolation. It is land dependant, but
> > > land ownership is
> > > concentrated, and it is difficult to own land
> > > outside the
> > > investment-mortgage system without fleeing
> > > population centers -- so
> > > again, isolation. Then there is also increasing
> > > insecurity in becoming old.
> > >
> > > > The uncertainties of business are being
> > > > minimized by causing the
> > > customers to behave in a way to allow for a
> > > significant return beyond
> > > expenditures.
> > >
> > > The horrific irony is that 'causing the
> > > customers to behave' part is
> > > very penetrating and pervasive. It is a
> > > economic
> > > landscape phenomena
> > > that must be overcome. The Pc idea is that you
> > > invest the surplus in
> > > the land -- not give it to a shareholder. So
> > > you
> > > limit you
> > > 'constituency'. Pc has a very limited
> > > 'constituency'. Economic
> > > interest groups use their surplus to influence
> > > the economic landscape
> > > for the benefit of their industry. Pc is busy
> > > working on soil fertility
> > > on land they have barely secured, while the
> > > rest
> > > of the world is
> > > creating the cultural infrastructure in support
> > > of their revenue
> > > streams. The Pc answer is that the rest of the
> > > word will fall apart and
> > > settle into Pc and so we focus on soil rather
> > > then 'the system' or 'the
> > > man'. Is that a safe or accurate assumption?
> > >
> > > I think land ownership is central to this
> > > thread. If I owned land
> > > outright, I would have more options, but I
> > > trade
> > > work for land over a
> > > lifetime, and to squirrel away capital for
> > > future security. Although I
> > > deviate from norms quite substantially, some of
> > > my behaviors are quite
> > > normal, because they are driven by economic
> > > insecurity context.
> > >
> > > > If your not perceived by those pulling the
> > > > strings in society as
> > > acceptable your going to be swimming up stream
> > > a
> > > lot.
> > >
> > > But only when you are dependant on string
> > > pulling, i.e. you are not
> > > generating your own revenue, not generating
> > > your
> > > own power, rather you
> > > are trying to appeal to a non-functioning
> > > populist ideal and you go
> > > appealing to the string-pullers and find that
> > > they have no interest or
> > > use for you. If you want to redirect the stream
> > > you learn the stream
> > > dynamics and start looking for weakness in the
> > > bank where you can cause
> > > an avulsion.
> > >
> > > > Permaculture is a frontier and that is why you
> > > > don't find lots of
> > > people out there. It is not what
> > > > has been going on the last 10,000 in
> > > > agriculture.
> > >
> > > Perhaps I am an unforgiving perfectionist, but
> > > I
> > > am not convinced that
> > > our designs are so spankin' special at this
> > > point.
> > >
> > > Paul Cereghino
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > -go to the above link to subscribe to or
> > > unsubscribe from this list-
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > How would you spend $50,000 to create a more
> > > sustainable environment in Australia? Go to
> > > Yahoo!7 Answers and share your idea.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > -go to the above link to subscribe to or
> > > unsubscribe from this list-
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > -go to the above link to subscribe to or
> > unsubscribe from this list-
> >
> >
> >
> > To live outside the law you must be honest- Mr
> > Robert Dylan
> >
> >  BEWARE OF TRASH:
> >
> > One particular four-year old prayed, "And
> > forgive us our 'trash baskets' as we forgive
> > those who put trash in our baskets."
> > Unkown
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > How would you spend $50,000 to create a more
> > sustainable environment in Australia?  Go to
> > Yahoo!7 Answers and share your idea.
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > -go to the above link to subscribe to or
> > unsubscribe from this list-
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> -go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-