permaculture

["Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop@cox.net>]

I've read this email several times, and I can't 
get past the blatant anti-semitism of the first 
paragraph.  I am sad that you think so little of 
this group and the people who read it to make such 
a racist comment in the context of a permaculture 
discussion.  Racist bigotry has nothing to do with 
permaculture, if you think that it does, you know 
nothing of permaculture.  Your loose talk 
depersonalizes human beings based on race and 
ethnicity for political motives, and that is the 
first step towards genocide.

Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Naylor" <martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au>
To: "permaculture" 
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Fed


> who was that clown Woodrow Wilson[and what did 
> he say-i have just done the biggest mistake in 
> history by giving the fucking clowns control of 
> the financial assets of the world to the fucking 
> Jews,just after they sent senator F. H. King  on 
> a journey around the world to report on stuff 
> [  Farmers of 40 centuries- although i drought 
> that,and he reported back farmers of forty 
> centuries ] that if you get into oil deserts 
> will increase and depletion of soil will result
>
>  The reason PERMACULTURE IS NOT WIDE SPREAD IS 
> BECAUSE  MR BILL MOLLISON DECLARED WE WILL NOT 
> BE SCUMMED BY THE AUTHORITIES -LIKE IT OR NOT -
>
> Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net> 
> wrote:
>  "why is it that permaculture [as an example of 
> decentralized ecological
> design] has such a small cult following in the 
> US rather than having
> broad attention and appeal?".
>
> > I suspect because the educational system, does 
> > not support it
>
> I learned about permaculture by going to 
> college, and though the college
> didn't teach permaculture, it did teach a range 
> of skills that I have
> retrofitted, and it gave me resources with which 
> to make choices about
> how I apply my life energy to affect the fabric 
> of human ecologies.
> There is a little of the chicken or the egg 
> here, in that you need
> people who think ecological design to teach 
> ecological design... I
> wonder if integration into primary and secondary 
> education would be more
> powerful? Over the last 20 years there are 
> increasing academic programs
> teaching 'holistic' stuff, and this is because 
> they are competing for
> students who demand 'holistic' stuff. The 
> populice and the dominant
> economic model doesn't support it, and the 
> educational system is just a
> service provider.
>
> I want to redirect the character of this 
> analysis -- this idea that Pc
> doesn't thrive because of 'them' or 'the 
> system'. That is just the easy
> way out. If we are such good designers, then 
> lets design! The problem
> is the solution, right... so show me! Least 
> action greatest response?
> Show me! Why is it when we come to human systems 
> we throw up our hands
> and say 'the system' is flawed? Perhaps we are 
> just ignorant of the
> actual design context?!
>
> > there are not vast economic dependancies 
> > associated with it, in the
> minds of policy makers
> > material returns of investors, rather than 
> > address the investments of
> the natural world
> > you might find yourself working as a carpenter.
>
> I think these combine -- Pc doesnt produce 
> revenue that can be
> concentrated to produce a lobbying force or a 
> political caucus.
> Pc offers guilt free subsistance but the 
> potential for emotionally
> stressful isolation. It is land dependant, but 
> land ownership is
> concentrated, and it is difficult to own land 
> outside the
> investment-mortgage system without fleeing 
> population centers -- so
> again, isolation. Then there is also increasing 
> insecurity in becoming old.
>
> > The uncertainties of business are being 
> > minimized by causing the
> customers to behave in a way to allow for a 
> significant return beyond
> expenditures.
>
> The horrific irony is that 'causing the 
> customers to behave' part is
> very penetrating and pervasive. It is a economic 
> landscape phenomena
> that must be overcome. The Pc idea is that you 
> invest the surplus in
> the land -- not give it to a shareholder. So you 
> limit you
> 'constituency'. Pc has a very limited 
> 'constituency'. Economic
> interest groups use their surplus to influence 
> the economic landscape
> for the benefit of their industry. Pc is busy 
> working on soil fertility
> on land they have barely secured, while the rest 
> of the world is
> creating the cultural infrastructure in support 
> of their revenue
> streams. The Pc answer is that the rest of the 
> word will fall apart and
> settle into Pc and so we focus on soil rather 
> then 'the system' or 'the
> man'. Is that a safe or accurate assumption?
>
> I think land ownership is central to this 
> thread. If I owned land
> outright, I would have more options, but I trade 
> work for land over a
> lifetime, and to squirrel away capital for 
> future security. Although I
> deviate from norms quite substantially, some of 
> my behaviors are quite
> normal, because they are driven by economic 
> insecurity context.
>
> > If your not perceived by those pulling the 
> > strings in society as
> acceptable your going to be swimming up stream a 
> lot.
>
> But only when you are dependant on string 
> pulling, i.e. you are not
> generating your own revenue, not generating your 
> own power, rather you
> are trying to appeal to a non-functioning 
> populist ideal and you go
> appealing to the string-pullers and find that 
> they have no interest or
> use for you. If you want to redirect the stream 
> you learn the stream
> dynamics and start looking for weakness in the 
> bank where you can cause
> an avulsion.
>
> > Permaculture is a frontier and that is why you 
> > don't find lots of
> people out there. It is not what
> > has been going on the last 10,000 in 
> > agriculture.
>
> Perhaps I am an unforgiving perfectionist, but I 
> am not convinced that
> our designs are so spankin' special at this 
> point.
>
> Paul Cereghino
>
>
>
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