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[bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>]

Bev, I ran across a site today that was breaking down numbers figuring what 
he expected from Obama's promises , platforms, etc, as well as with his 
stimulus packages and bail-outs (only the ones after the elction).  Now, I 
don't know if the guys numbers were right-- it could very well have been 
wrong, but his projections were that in eight years , Obama will have spent 
more money than all of the first forty-three presidents who preceded him 
spent, combined.  Part is just exponential overall growth in spending, but 
part is him with a democrat 
congress...........................................

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--- On Fri, 12/19/08, EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Moods
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 7:13 PM
> Gene GeRue wrote:
> > On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:56 PM, EarthNSky wrote:
> > 
> >> I have noticed, that despite Mr. Obama being in
> the news quite a 
> >> bit, that he is not being discussed here...no
> mention of the 
> >> inauguration, very little mention of cabinet
> picks, no mention of 
> >> Hillary or Bill, almost no mention of the Blogo
> scandal, Rahm, the
> >>  middle name issue, etc....very odd. <BEG>
> > 
> > I presume that BEG means you beg us to forgive you for
> reminding us 
> > of our recent upsets.
> 
> 
> The Big Evil Grin is me poking y'all with a stick,
> trying to stir it up
> and get people talking about something they *really*
> disagree
> about(politics), not arguing about who is an A+ homesteader
> and who is a
> hobby homesteader, etc. People seem frustrated beyond
> belief on the
> list for whatever reason lately(hence the title of this
> thread-Moods),
> and usually a good political fight helps relieve tension,
> so I was
> stirring one up by listing controversial news stories like
> the Blogo
> scandal.  Perhaps that was the wrong thing to do, maybe too
> soon since
> the last foray, maybe wounds still healing.  If so, I
> screwed up again.
> 
> As far as forgiving me of recent upsets, I already
> apologized to the
> list, but I really don't feel that I need any
> forgiveness for
> stating my opinion or my feelings.
> 
> > 
> > It became obvious to me that we on this list are
> unable to have 
> > respectful, useful political discussion.
> 
> This is a new thought for you?
> It is hard for me to remember when this list has EVER
> conducted itself
> in a useful political discussion.  That is why, until this
> election, I
> have stayed out of it.  Most of the people who have left
> over the years
> left, I think, because of politics.  It cuts right to the
> heart of the
> individual.  However, important arguments and important
> discussions
> should be entertained when an important choice is to be
> made, and when
> we all have such a personal/national stake in the matter,
> it can get
> ugly quickly.
> 
>   Seriously, it devolved to the
> > point where you told me to stop speaking to you, at
> least two members
> >  left the list, I seriously considered leaving the
> list--all because
> >  of political rants, cheap shots, accusations and
> hysteria. Do you 
> > really want more of that?
> 
> Well of course not, but I seriously doubt you intend to not
> voice your
> political opinion over the next 4-8 years, and if you can
> voice yours,
> then other people can voice theirs, right?  And the next
> thing you know,
> it's a free-for-all.  I believe it was you who told me
> that I should
> leave the kitchen if I can't stand the heat?  I
> challenge you or anyone
> else here on the list to search the archives for a
> political discussion
> that did not break down into rants and cheap shots in less
> than 10
> posts..maybe even less than 5.
> This reminds me of the scene in The Breakfast Club where
> Bender says:
> "Hey, how come Andrew gets to get up? If he gets up,
> we'll all get up,
> it'll be anarchy!"   So true.
> IMO, that devolvement you speak of is just the way this
> list operates,
> and I just think it is the medium's safety impression
> that allows much
> to be written.  We say things here that no one would ever
> say face to
> face. If we could actually SEE the hurt caused by our
> words, then I
> think we would not say as much as we do here, and perhaps
> abide by that
> old adage that you should not discuss sex, religion, or
> politics in
> polite company, and I think POLITE is the key word there. 
> If you
> discuss these things at all, then be prepared for the
> discussion to turn
> into something NOT polite.
> 
> When Farmer left, that was a huge turning point for this
> list, imo.  He
> started his own moderated list where such discussions were
> verboten.  I
> know that almost everyone here is there, except for maybe a
> few.  This
> list has become the place where arguing belief is
> permissible, and other
> lists, because they are moderated, are more civil and
> purpose driven.
> Farmer did a great thing, but that doesn't devalue this
> list.  Only so
> much can be gained when there is avoidance of issues or
> censorship of
> thought.
> Here, our 'free for all' technique carries on.  The
> difference in
> recent(the last year) vs. the previous years conversations
> have been
> that more conservatives have voiced their opinions here. 
> Honestly, I
> never even thought much about liberalism vs. conservativism
> until this
> last year, when took off my homestead blinder goggles and
> took a hard
> look, that's when  I realized how liberal the main
> posters on the list
> are.  For example, the liberal contention might be in a
> heated
> discussion about whether or not someone should have to wait
> 3 days or 3
> weeks, with background checks, to buy a gun.  Were their
> rights
> violated?  Would it stop family violence?  Etc. Then, a
> conservative
> jumps into the fray and rocks the boat harder by reminding
> them of their
> constitutional rights, and that anyone and everyone should
> own a gun..no
> waiting, no checks.   So that would really shake things up,
> and suddenly
> core beliefs become threatened which further fuels the
> debate.  Does all
> this bickering and nastiness change anyone's mind?  I
> doubt it.
> However, it does teach us one thing, how to listen to the
> other side.
> It gives the conflict meaning.  It is a reminder to all
> that no matter
> how YOU feel about an issue, someone else, maybe even
> someone you
> consider family, or even your actual family, might feel
> completely
> opposite.  Our discussions here are an exercise in looking
> at the other
> side of the equation and that helps us in real life to do
> the same, and
> THAT makes us better as people.  Y'all have jumped on
> me about my
> patriotism, but I can say this kind of free and open
> exchange of ideas
> in a permanent medium such as the internet is a great
> thing, something
> that is not permitted in many countries throughout the
> world.
> 
> I have to say this...
> I know Obama hasn't taken office yet, but so far, I am
> actually placated
> with his actions and picks for the most part.  I'm not
> sure that the
> corruption of the Chicago political machine is any worse
> than that in
> NYC or in Little Rock. It's only a big deal now because
> Obama is still a
> golden child who hasn't, in the eyes of the MSM, been
> tainted.  I
> believe that Obama's personal beliefs are as far left
> as you can get
> without becoming the Marxist Che Guevarra and inciting war.
>  His black
> liberation theology and his connections with the those who
> were active
> in the Black Panther organization and other radical groups
> have led me
> to believe that even if he, personally, would never go
> "that far", he
> has been exposed and indoctrinated in such by numerous
> people in his
> life.  Now, I tend to see that as more of a negative than a
> positive,
> but obviously, others disagree.  HOWEVER, since the
> election, he seems,
> to my great relief, and conversely, to the dismay of the
> very liberal
> left, he has moderated his actions and choices and words. 
> He is taking
> away much of my fear factor, and I don't think I am
> alone.  I like the
> team of rivals idea...it is what I have here on this list
> even...people
> who differ from you in opinion, but whom you respect for
> getting where
> they are in life and being confident in who they are.  It
> provides what
> we all need to evolve into higher thinking, and that is the
> balance of
> ideas.  However, you conservatives out there shouldn't
> go thinking I
> have succumbed to the Obama virus; I have not.  I have
> simply moderated
> my beliefs.  Like Lynn said, he is just same ol' same
> ol'-politics as
> usual, and while I agree with Lynn' sentiment on this,
> I know that you
> don't...Obama, for you Gene, is the name of the
> Revolution.
> I hope time proves you right, but it is looking like we
> both might be
> wrong about this guy.
> Respectfully,
> Bev
> 
> 
> -- 
> The true significance of Sacajawea's involvement in the
> Lewis & Clark
> expedition is that it was the first documented trip in
> history where men
> asked a woman for directions and followed them, allowing
> them to arrive
> at their destination.
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