permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Damn Laurence, you went off on me there! :-) Gasp, you're a machine nerd!! 
:-))

What was explained to me about local turbines  (and I am just mindlessly 
repeating what I've been told here :-) is that it takes the right equipment 
to tool them correctly so that they work with maximum efficiency, especially 
on a broadscale - it's very precise work and the factories that do that work 
specialize in large turbines and it would cost some bucks to retool or build 
one that could custom create small turbines. I'm looking at broad scale 
solutions that millions could access as well as what machinists might be able 
to do in their garages. One acquaintance was using a diesel motor as part of 
the hookup which was primitive compared to a custom turbine. Where you really 
start getting efficiencies from what I've been told is when combining things 
like steam solar and fuel cells that can hold the charge. 

Would love to hear about the new steam turbine, and I cc'ed a couple of 
people who will be able to appreciate your description below.

 
On 1/1/2013 4:57 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:

> I believe there is new tech available with fuel cells that could be used for
> local energy, and will let you know more as soon as I have sufficient
> data to be interesting.

I'll look forward to this.
In the meantime I will look into small, shop built steam turbines that 
utilize off the shelf components and machined and welded parts.

>> Oops, I missed this! There are some very good ideas here. I'm
>> passing this along to my machine nerd friends :-)

Let's hear from them here! :-)

> On 1/1/2013 1:28 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
>> But why leave it to each individual neighborhood to
>> devise solutions? Why not put our collective heads together on an
>> international level, here and now? Surely we have more resources
>> combined than we do in little groups, to come up with multiple
>> solutions (there is no one size fits all).
>
> We are doing just that. It has been happening all along.
>
> OK, I hear you. We don't quite have it nailed yet, but there are good
> ideas and movement in the right direction, for sure.

I agree, we bneed to keep the discussion going and explore new 
possibilities, technologies, materials.

OK, about the steam turbine, that rural coop group mentioned here from 
time to time is/was interested in a new type of steam turbine utilizing 
some exotic physical principle; it has a unique name and I forget what 
it is and is high rpm.

>> Wood is not the best energy source, I feel, for many reasons. One
>> can create solar steam cogenerator with fuel cell and turbine
>> engine to create electricity.
>
> Tell me more about this: solar steam generator in cold climates.
> Maybe with reflector and or Fresnel lens? And again, the fuel cells?
> Existing small scale steam turbines? Time to Google YouTube...
>
> Yes, solar steam with reflector, fresnel lens.

That should work. I Imagine this to be low but useful output driving a 
turbine that drives a generator. You do need batteries and possibly a
phase converter to be the most useful. Running this system w/o the 
latter still could provide power for water pumping and laundry, and 
certainly water heating plus preheat water for wood fired boiler.
I like the wood fired unit because it focuses people's attention and 
energy; keeps them on some kind of schedule; it should never get to be 
boring.

> A small scale turbine
> would be wonderful, wouldn't it? It needs to exist, if it doesn't.

Darn right it would.

I have taken a course in manual machining, blueprint reading, 
calculations, measurement, layout, manual machining. I could machine a 
rudimentary rotor from a piece of round plate .5" thick by mounting it 
on a dividing head and milling round recesses tangentially around the 
perimeter of the plate at even intervals. This would make a rotor like 
one on a centrifugal water pump or a common waterwheel at a grist mill. 
A more efficient design would be a rotor with radial turbine blades. A 
small diameter unit of this type should work well; it would consist of a 
long arbor or axle with turbine blades mounted to it radially and 
heliacally from front to back; all this would be mounted in a tube with 
inlet and outlet for steam. Have a vacuum cleaner blow air through a 
tube and focus it in the blades of a small computer fan. It really winds 
up fast. I am thinking of a more refined version of this for the steam 
turbine. The blades could be cut from thin flat bar stock on an abrasive 
chopsaw, formed on a hydraulic press, pressed into holes in the arbor 
and mig welded into place. Mount bearings on either end and install into 
the tube. Mount tube, attach steam pipe, fire up the boiler, step back 
and listen to the mighty roar. Then use proper coupling and connect the 
rotor to the arbor of a generator. Gearing the turbine rpm down would 
probably be necessary so add a the necessary gearbox between rotor and 
generator which will probably need to operate at 1750RPM, maybe 2250.

Finding scrap yards and mail order sources of parts, materials and 
components would be in order. Recycling and adapting parts, components 
and entire sections of machines might be a useful option. Maybe some 
surplus outlet offers used turbines of one sort or another that could be 
adapted.

LL
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 17:13:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite
        "better than PV panels?"
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Who is in a position to implement some of these ideas now? Maybe some LEED 
project? Would be good to get these things discussed in those networks. 
 
 

________________________________
 From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better than PV panels?"
 
On 1/1/2013 12:05 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> Yes, some very good ideas, but I deal with urban systems which must
> be retrofitted, not torn down and rebuilt (which would be way

Most of my suggestions do not require tearing down anything, only 
infill, retrofit, redesign and remodel. With steam generated electric 
power you have the same thing as microhydro only you are using rotors 
turned by wood and water rather than gravity and water, using locally 
sourced materials. If somehow you could put together community or 
neighborhood toilets or even sewage lines connecting toilets in homes 
coupled with biogas generation equipment you would have a source of fuel 
for cooking, DHW production and for the electric generator which could 
driven by any 4 cycle engine retrofitted with natural gas carburetion 
(there is a company in West Virginia that sells all of these 
components). Neighborhood biogas generation with community toilets (less 
flush water) would likely be a properly scaled system
that would be the easiest to manage.

WATER:

We haven't even begun to discuss water catchment, purification, 
conservation and recycling. Systems dealing with these issues are some 
of the e3asiest to construct and put in place for reliable operation.

We need more ideas about water use and recycling.

> wasteful, and just lazy design). This is a problem that I feel needs
> to be confronted with the group genius at work, really digging in and
> looking for the best solutions to the existing structure - not some
> pie in the sky scenario. We are here, we did do what we did, and now
> we are functioning via the use of fossil fuels on massive scales.
> What is the design solution?

Lets work on it!
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms
        intheOldSystem
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Teachers and Learners have different styles.
I am more comfortable, both as a learner and a teacher with this type of
emphasis: the walk over the talk.
I'm also aware of Fukuoka's attuning to the 'soul of things', and feel this
is essential.
To draw an analogy: I would rather talk/learn/enquire about spirit than
religion.
I highly doubt that the father of 'permaculture' would ever have asked that
we set aside our basic humanity in favour of his system approach.
We are all people here and it is essential that we grapple with what arises
as the people we are...
Sorry, I have little patience for 'by the book' mentalities. (Yes, the book
has much to offer. But, any language or system thrives best if it is living,
and how can it do so if it has only one authority and does not need to speak
to generations to come, and will not lend itself to tweaking as the need
arises, and will not recognize itself in other forms? How can we find the
good if we do not look for it and learn to recognize essential elements?
Perhaps this all comes down to whether we take a dualistic approach or a
non-dualistic approach, in the end. I tend to find my growing edge in
non-dualistic thought. Saves me every time.
Fran
P.S. I find this list full of interest and inspiration. I hesitated to post
on this topic because of a wish to focus on what is working. But self
expression sometimes has a way of begging to make itself heard.  I hope that
I am not fostering further misunderstandings with my self expression
(above), but probably am, because I sense that I am posting more for those
who are feeling similar to myself than those that are not.  Apologies for
any sloppiness that has crept into what I have to say, thus nullifying what
is worthwhile and relevant in my message.


-----Original Message-----
From: paul wheaton
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 4:57 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms
intheOldSystem

> I do have tremendous respect for Sepp.  He really knows his stuff and is
> good at figuring out how to improve systems on the ground. But he doesn't
> teach permaculture design courses as we know them.  It is more that he
> lives them.

Beautiful.  I couldn't have said it better.

--

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