permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I'm thinking neighborhood sized energy solutions may be more within reach. 
There are cooperatives buying solar panels currently, reducing the price. I 
have seen some interesting fuel cell, geothermal, cutting edge solar, and 
high efficiency wind tech that looks interesting. I don't know of any company 
that sells it though. We need portable energy solutions beyond PV. The 
technology exists, it's a matter of making it available. I like the super 
efficient wood stoves that produce enough electricity to charge your phone. 
But in the US, there is going to be more demand, realistically. I think it 
would be easier to find a technology that uses solar or wind power (I don't 
like wave power sources because it messes up the ecosystem too much - you 
should be able to capture the energy right where you use it, ideally), than 
to get everybody to give up what they use now like refrigerators, etc. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better than PV panels?"
 
I think in urban areas some kind of district energy setup works, it could 
provide hot and cold water (for cooling and heating, respectively) during 
their 
seasons, freezer/locker service to householders,laundry service, and do so 
with 
technologies that might not be feasible at the household level.I'm thinking 
of a 
solar driven ammonia adsorbation (if I got that spelling correct) for 
freezing 
and cooling, and maybe collected biogas from the residents for heating 
supplemented with biomass furnished by the beneficiaries.  Electricity would 
be 
from a several sources including on site solar pV, and wind associated with 
the 
neighborhood "Service Center". 


Or the district service center could operate via large ground source heat 
pumps.

Bob Waldrop, OKC






________________________________
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, January 1, 2013 7:19:26 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better 
than PV panels?"

This is great for a homesteader on 10 acres, but I'm looking for something 
that 
works on a 1/4 acre lot that already has a bunch of stuff on it like food 
forests, house and garage (for co-housing), compost, vermicompost, rain 
catchment, etc. On a lot that size, you need most or all  of the coppiced 
wood 
for fertility if you don't want to import it. You gotta have something that 
goes 
on the roof, like PV, or something really small. 

This is a design problem that is not handled or solved that I know of. If 
everyone on the planet moved to 20 acre homesteads, or 5 acres or even 1 acre 
and grew wood for fuel, it wouldn't be the highest use for trees or wood on 
this 
planet, and therefore not sustainable. It's all well and good to talk about 
how 
others aren't really applying permaculture, but how many of us are fully off 
grid and using fully renewable (over the long term) energy sources that could 
work anywhere on the planet - particularly in US suburbs?  What would happen 
if 
we as a group put our collective genius to the task of solving this one? 

Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better 
than PV panels?"

On 1/1/2013 1:57 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> I hear you - these are great, as long as you have a stream and enough
> altitude change to have meaningful flow/speed.
>
> How about in a typical suburban neighborhood with no streams? Fuel
> cell? Geothermal? Co-generation? Some kind of solar or wind I haven't
> heard of yet? Something that is affordable for most people? And you
> don't have to rip up the foundation of your house to do it?

Co-generation:

Have a woodlot, coppiced or cut trees for fuel feeding a wood-fired 
boiler/DHW generator/bake oven providing steam to a steam engine running 
a generator charging batteries during hours solar panels or wind turbine 
isn't charging them. Use 12/24 VDC current for lights or appliances or a 
phase converter to supply 120VAC to appliances such as well pump, 
refrigeration, aquaculture/hyrdoponics/aquaponics/irrigation systems. 
Very high efficiency, high heat, forced air fed wood burners can be 
constructed that would quickly generate steam while providing DHW for 
storage in an insulated tank. Combine PV panels, with wind turbines with 
steam engine powered electrical generator for a whole systems approach 
to of the grid power.

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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 10:28:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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I hear you. But why leave it to each individual neighborhood to devise 
solutions? Why not put our collective heads together on an international 
level, here and now? Surely we have more resources combined than we do in 
little groups, to come up with multiple solutions (there is no one size fits 
all). 

Wood is not the best energy source, I feel, for many reasons. One can create 
solar steam cogenerator with fuel cell and turbine engine to create 
electricity. This could be created at any scale from backyard to city. There 
are many possibilities like this. Which would you rather have as an energy 
source? Something that almost maintains itself, and renews itself whenever 
the sun shines, or something you have to grow, harvest, and feed to a fire on 
a regular basis? To me, there is nothing more sustainable and renewable than 
sun energy (except maybe wind). So let's use our collective resources to 
create channels by which this can manifest. I feel like a freaking hypocrite 
by not having a real solution to get off of fossil fuels. I think it is a 
huge omission in our toolbox and in our community. We all would rather be in 
the garden than tinkering with fuel cells, I guess (I know I would - it's 
been a real effort for me to put my little blond head to the task
 of understanding what the options are from a design viewpoint). But if 
that's the case, let's use invisible structure permaculture and link up with 
machine nerds, then. I'm working on that, in my town. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better than PV panels?"
 
On 1/1/2013 8:19 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> This is great for a homesteader on 10 acres, but I'm looking for
> something that works on a 1/4 acre lot that already has a bunch of
> stuff on it like food forests, house and garage (for co-housing),
> compost, vermicompost, rain catchment, etc. On a lot that size, you
> need most or all  of the coppiced wood for fertility if you don't
> want to import it. You gotta have something that goes on the roof,
> like PV, or something really small.
>
> This is a design problem that is not handled or solved that I know
> of. If everyone on the planet moved to 20 acre homesteads, or 5 acres
> or even 1 acre and grew wood for fuel, it wouldn't be the highest use
> for trees or wood on this planet, and therefore not sustainable. It's
> all well and good to talk about how others aren't really applying
> permaculture, but how many of us are fully off grid and using fully
> renewable (over the long term) energy sources that could work
> anywhere on the planet - particularly in US suburbs?  What would
> happen if we as a group put our collective genius to the task of
> solving this one?

An answer to that question is simply to use Toby's propopsal:
"self-reliance on a bioregional level is where we need to focus not on 
self-sufficiency". Organize neighborhoods with distributed production in 
mind. Have them all meet and brainstorm. There is hardly anything more 
fun than doing that. Determine the needs of individual (urban) 
(permaculture) home(steads). Locate vacant urban space within the 
neighborhood. Install permaculture gardens with woodlots for fuel 
generation and compost from leaves and twigs, wildlife habitat. I'll bet 
you'd be surprised at how much land you would find that could be used 
for these purposes. Some of this space could be devoted exclusively to 
fuel production. Also, why would every house need its own power 
generation system? Why not determine the most efficient size
of such equipment and have it supply electricity to as many homes as 
possible; also those homes can schedule power usage at different times
to eliminate peak loading (overloading) of the system. Also, individual 
homes could have small PV units with battery storage as determined by 
their needs which may differ from their neighbor's, i.e. more or less 
electronic gear to be charged, or have a common charging station for 
several homes. Why not have community kitchens and dining facilities,
with food storage: pickling, canning, fermenting equipment, freezers and 
refrigerators, food dehydrators, pantries, baking facilities (coupled 
with steam & DHW boiler). I really like the idea of steam engine driven 
electrical generators with battery storage. This can be done on any 
scale proportional to need and provides living space and greenhouse heat 
as well as heat for cooking and baking, if the equipment is designed 
with that in mind. Coordinate the latter with
operation of the power plant.

The possibilities are endless. As Bill Mollison said (with a few words 
added by me): "the only limit to the scope, depth and complexity of a 
permaculture design is the imagination of the designer (and of course 
the skill and knowledge of those implementing those designs)".

LL
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 13:30:49 2013
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 10:30:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Oops, I missed this! There are some very good ideas here. I'm passing this 
along to my machine nerd friends :-) 
 
 

________________________________
 From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better than PV panels?"
 
On 1/1/2013 1:57 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> I hear you - these are great, as long as you have a stream and enough
> altitude change to have meaningful flow/speed.
>
> How about in a typical suburban neighborhood with no streams? Fuel
> cell? Geothermal? Co-generation? Some kind of solar or wind

Bergey windmills are very affordable, competitive with photovoltaic 
panels, which have come down in price. These wind turbines can be 
installed most anywhere with little effort and small footprint.

> I haven't
> heard of yet? Something that is affordable for most people? And you
> don't have to rip up the foundation of your house to do it?

Co-generation:

Have a woodlot, coppiced or cut trees for fuel feeding a wood-fired
boiler/DHW generator/bake oven providing steam to a steam engine running 
a generator charging batteries during hours solar panels or wind 
turbines aren't charging them. Use 12/24 VDC current for lights or 
appliances or a phase converter to supply 120 VAC to appliances such as 
well pump, refrigeration, aquaculture/hyrdoponics/aquaponics/irrigation 
systems. Very high efficiency, high heat, forced air fed wood burners 
can be constructed that would quickly generate steam while providing DHW 
for storage in an insulated tank. Stainless DHW tanks are available
for long service life; you can add supplemental waterprooof, hard 
setting, non toxic spray foam insulation to them for almost zero heat 
loss; you can do the same with refrigeration units to gain operating 
efficiency.

Solar closets can be constructed that store heat in water-filled barrels 
housed in superinsulated rooms. A solar thermal panel with backflow 
prevention is used to generate high temperature heat that
is channeled to the barrels. During off hours the stored heat is 
circulated throughout the building's living quarters, which should have 
thermal mass for additional heat recycling (and cooling during warm 
months).

Combine PV panels, with wind turbines with steam engine powered 
electrical generator for a whole systems approach to off grid power
generation. Mount the PV panels on frames attached to the bases of the 
wind charger towers. Both systems use the same electrical cabling to 
carry current to the battery bank and phase converter.

Available now are high efficiency phase converters and deep cycle 
storage batteries such as lead-acid, gel cell/glass mat, lithium ion and 
the latest technology, lithium phosphate.

First and foremost, reduce electrical energy needs.
Design buildings with adequate glazing and skylights that reduce or 
eliminate the need for electrical lighting during daylight hours. Use 
attached greenhouses for 1) light 2) space heat 3) growing food crops
4) clean air and provide oxygen (especially useful when wood burners are 
used for backup space heat).
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Good timing and a wonderful New Year's message of hope, cooperation,
stewardship, charity and if he were aware of it, the Permaculture Three
Ethics:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20882894

Pope's new year address deplores rampant capitalism
Pope Benedict XVI in Vatican, 1 Jan 13 The Pope blessed the gospel
during Mass in St Peter's Basilica

Pope Benedict XVI has condemned "unregulated capitalism" for
contributing to world tension, in a new year address to worshippers.

The Pope also thanked the world's peacemakers and said humanity had "an
innate vocation for peace".

The Roman Catholic Church leader spoke at a Mass in the Vatican, then
greeted a crowd outside St Peter's Basilica.

He deplored "hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances
of inequality between rich and poor".

Those "hotbeds" also grew out of "the prevalence of a selfish and
individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated
financial capitalism", as well as "various forms of terrorism and
crime", he said.

The 85-year-old pontiff delivered a prayer for peace to the crowd in St
Peter's Square after his homily at Mass.

"The peacemakers are many, but they are not loud. As leaven in dough,
they raise humanity according to God's plan," he said.

Comparing the new year to a journey, he prayed that it "may lead on a
path to peace for every person and every family, for each country and
for the whole world".