permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

OK, I got that I should read everything before responding!  I believe there 
is new tech available with fuel cells that could be used for local energy, 
and will let you know more as soon as I have sufficient data to be 
interesting.
> Oops, I missed this! There are some very good ideas here. I'm passing this 
> along to my machine nerd friends :-)

Read all of mine, they are not that long and are part of a continuum 
with new info, less typos etc. With each new post I remember more of the 
things I meant to post previously, addressing more of the points I 
thought important.

Tell me more about fuel cells and why you think they are a local energy 
source option.

 I believe there is new tech available with fuel cells that could be used for 
local energy, and will let you know more as soon as I do.

On 1/1/2013 1:28 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> I hear you. But why leave it to each individual neighborhood to
> devise solutions? Why not put our collective heads together on an
> international level, here and now? Surely we have more resources
> combined than we do in little groups, to come up with multiple
> solutions (there is no one size fits all).

We are doing just that. It has been happening all along.

OK, I hear you. We don't quite have it nailed yet, but there are good ideas 
and movement in the right direction, for sure. 

 > Wood is not the best energy source, I feel, for many reasons. One can
> create solar steam cogenerator with fuel cell and turbine engine to
> create electricity.

Tell me more about this: solar steam generator in cold climates.
Maybe with reflector and or Fresnel lens? And again, the fuel cells?
Existing small scale steam turbines?
Time to Google YouTube...

Yes, solar steam with reflector, fresnel lens. A small scale turbine would be 
wonderful, wouldn't it? It needs to exist, if it doesn't. 

> This could be created at any scale from backyard
> to city. There are many possibilities like this. Which would you
> rather have as an energy source? Something that almost maintains
> itself, and renews itself whenever the sun shines,

The answer to that is obvious. I was merely suggesting low tech
solutions for small scale but important energy generation and materials 
cycling in my previous posts.

OK, I get it. 
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 17:09:01 2013
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:08:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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These are in pretty heavy use on a large scale with some utility companies, 
in AZ and other places. Haven't seen one in use on a small scale but would 
like to. Do you know of any actually in use on a home? How much power do they 
get from it? 

Would be very interested in hearing about any outcome of a discussion with 
green architects or others about this subject. 
 
 


________________________________
 From: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: [permaculture] links
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNNlYiKxlc&list=PLBEF40B354EAE928E&index=5

parabolic solar power...
followed by a video on simple parabolic construction possibility...

fran
(picked up this link from Paul Wheaton’s permies.com and posted it to North 
West Pacific Alternative Housing Research   group on facebook:    
https://www.facebook.com/groups/368321513213155/499830446728927/?comment_id=499875066724465¬if_t=group_comment

(The energy/infrastructure discussion going down on this list right now is 
worthy of organization and compilation into one document which I would love 
to post on the fb page to increase the chances that people will consider, 
respond and build the community of this group think. We are fortunate where 
we live in that we have a couple of architects, among other people, who have 
taken an interest in focalizing such discussions...)
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Hi Toby et al,

Your comments on Sepp Holzer are well founded I believe. I got to experience 
Sepp for a part of his two week course in Montana this past May.  Terry, my 
partner here, attended his whole two week course.  I just read her your 
comments and in her opinion Sepp never once mentioned the permaculture ethics 
or principles. 

I do have tremendous respect for Sepp.  He really knows his stuff and is good 
at figuring out how to improve systems on the ground. But he doesn't teach 
permaculture design courses as we know them.  It is more that he lives them. 

Michael Pilarski

--- On Tue, 1/1/13, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:

From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in 
theOldSystem
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 12:16 PM

Scott Pittman wrote:

> Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy would
> argue with a fence post!"  

I don't even think the fence post is necessary. Thanks for that wonderful 
Texas-ism, Scott.

Jason and Paul, you boys play nice, now. Blame the frickin' internet and its 
infinite capacity to sustain misunderstandings! You're both doing awesome 
stuff. Paul, I've seen Jason in action, and I'd definitely give him the title 
Duke (or Prince, even) of Colorado permaculture (I think Jerome Osentowski's 
got the kingship sewn up for now). 

Paul, thanks for this clarification:

> So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
> persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
> from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
> see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
> his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
> says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
> eat all of the infinite pounds."

That helps me see where you are coming from (I was pretty sure neither one of 
us was an idiot). I do occasionally see zealots who say you have to drink all 
the Kool-Aid or you can't have any, but they are pretty rare. Your focus is 
on getting people to take any step in the right direction, and you're good at 
that, and I'm with you there. My main focus tho, because of the way my mind 
works, is to crank out fully trained permaculture thinkers and actors. So 
we're looking at different parts of the elephant (or I'm trying to train the 
whole elephant and you're trying to get him to lift his foot off of your 
bike). 

So you're right in that we need to meet people where they are. In your 
(other, useful) terminology, you are trying to get the pesticide-using farmer 
to move from level 9 to level 8 (with Mollison et al being at level 1), or 
even just to level 8.9999. So you don't even need to use the word 
permaculture, let alone mention the ethics. And I'm looking for people who 
want to end up at level 3 or 2, no matter what level they're at now. So they 
need to know how to use to guide their decision-making: how does their action 
increase earthcare, how does it do peoplecare, and how do they design for the 
surplus that it will create? But, yeah, like Jason says, all that farmer 
needs to know is a little soil science, not the ethics. When he's ready to 
practice permaculture design, they we can hit him with the ethics, as there 
will be a niche for it in his mind by then.

I think Koreen and Jason are right in that permaculture is well used as an 
adjective. It's a process, not a thing. The ethics and principles guide the 
process, and keep us from using cookie-cutter solutions, which is what 
happens if you think it is a thing.

Sepp's adoption of the word "permaculture" for his work is something I've 
wondered about. I know he didn't use permaculture design to create his place; 
he did it out of his innate skill in observation and understanding natural 
systems. Because of that it ended up looking much like a permaculture design. 
I suspect that when he encountered permaculture, he made a shrewd 
decision--and boy, is he shrewd. Rather than reinvent and try to market his 
work as "Holzerism" or whatever, starting from scratch, he saw that it made 
much more sense to use his work to jump high up into the permaculture 
hierarchy, and was able to immediately become one of the most highly regarded 
permaculturists. I don't mean that as a criticism or opportunism (in a 
negative sense), but it worked out very well for him. His site seems more 
"permaculture in hindsight" than permaculture design, if I can quibble. And I 
doubt if he mentions the ethics, or even the principles.

Congrats to us all for surviving another end of the world prophecy. Happy 
2013.

Toby

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