Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - [permaculture] permaculture enlightenment for the military

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Patrick <forgeadams@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] permaculture enlightenment for the military
  • Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT)

Dick said-I am going to try to avoid reading any more on this thread. It is
souring me on the whole, mostly interesting/civil listserve.

Let's do stop talking like this to each other, please. Perhaps it is time for
some moderating/editing/ rejecting on the part of the listserve moderators or
the listserve participants at large.


Really Dick? I've been on this list for a couple years and have not felt it
to be all that cordial & only sporadically informative. At mention of this
list Tom Ward said he steers clear of this forum due to it's reputation as a
shouting match, & I believe he's mostly correct.



The most recent example that comes to mind is all the shit talking of Common
Circle, the permaculture education center in Berkeley. I was able to get
Vladisav to actually address the listserv himself (he wasn't a subscriber) so
the vile factionalism would cease. He was content to just ignore it. If you
read my post on it you know I'm not exactly excited about Common Circle
despite its focus on the often ignored social aspects of permaculture (I
think we need more focus on information technology, legal structures,
alternative justice systems, & entrepreneurialism rather than on personal
spirituality). I've had a similar amount (fairly minimal) of time of face to
face interaction with both of those guys, but enough to get a sense of them
both.  I certainly sympathize more with the Scott's projects. He's been
active for many fold longer than Valisav, providing much more opportunity to
criticize his work.

When Scott vehemently denounces folks should he get censored, or should we
only people you are not familiar with be censored? Hands off is a better
approach to listserve management. Dick, if you would send me the posts you
censor on the austin permaculture list I would be thoroughly amused.

If we work with the military we become become tacit apologists for war
whether we intend to or not. It's totally reasonable to question training
troops when it's done any permaculturist. It's not about attacking any
particular people.       

When the permaculture institute sent me their email advertisement of the
national guard training I responded with my little boo, no response of
course. I also had a little quip in response to Keith Johnson's boosterism of
the national guard training. He suggested I bring it up on this list but I
knew that people would become defensive when instructors they look up to are
criticized. After Rafter opened that can of worms I posted a fairly
thoughtful response but Scott didn't even take the time to compare my post to
a low grade food product (Was it say, grade gefilte fish?).
 
We really need to begin addressing each other as equals on this list. There's
this creepy cheerleading of those people in the permaculture pantheon. Our
strange little cults of personality are not going to assist in scaling-up
permaculture.     

This list would be a much more effective tool if we took more of a peer to
peer approach (I have noticed Lawrence's recent attempts to draw out lurkers,
it's a good beginning). Chaordic permaculture is a currently unsuccessful
attempt at P2P communication.

http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Theory <-lookie

Patrick O'Connor
http://www.oaklandsol.org/






>From lindaray@att.net Thu Aug 26 21:04:26 2010
Return-Path: <lindaray@att.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 8C31A4C028; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:04:26 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,REMOVE_BEFORE_LINK,
SARE_HIRISK_FORGED_ATT autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from n69.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com (n69.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
[98.136.44.41])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D47B14C021
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:04:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n69.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:04:24 -0000
Received: from [69.147.84.109] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:04:24 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:04:24 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 137926.91938.bm@omp207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 71519 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Aug 2010 01:04:24 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024;
t82871064; bh=r0OADL6vz2aRHUlaiiA4xzg0M5vZym0UOvw/nWGKK+o=;

h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;

b=QX8PTOa2s0N3y/HzujooZqOQqBeyZBrzwGqlGJFnBWAvURNFYYZ2ZSkLQjWVotk2MTmtwys+LJ76zC89Sk4on0/vHpqsz6e5LJG7dfNmQRbleGc+RaIRxJQ1w+/SFDkcadzC61mVwYgdV62c4vCabKF2zyy7eSwwjFYd92ZtPUYDomainKey-Signature:
a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net;

h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;

bÔRU0H1mf41V593i5cGiYwMXJnc6E2aDhN8WF/UnG0SlfsSz8UNsWJOmOnEhJf9GaRd0ESnM9+whgKKTSyy3gcnBzB6WZYOF8Fj/GTpJuOiH7M+5y6Uo4eEVanKEUHsUURAJKo7Gvh6sGqxYH4R2oTwcKLjL/VE6ogim50kIzZs=;
Message-ID: <14105.71145.qm@web83805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: GCDNq_QVM1lGA46RLkXl1T0b3yZ0tuwO4lknY7kt_D8uSjB
fLwz8dZWXnK0_jUz.l24L2U_bUflbmt9CZj0sTEM.GzQUY3v0Cll.faC9Bjz
cN8LQUo3e78aME5uE0J.05VwAhAl0N5TtIkoBcB.7xSYzLW3bTJPTUblL4Ta
3ApAFqAlUxsVU8wX_Q0hB0Vl8YQLw8ZtJI8ZiMXb.NVlBTPBgdyuSBtzHa6e
42vCNST2bNpjXa3iz4uOUgXP_JU9AOfMTD30QMD3pj1raQD_JDEoLuSjTW_w
oC9nc7SUzE2UDXRaA0G8AYK0Qbl5qTiR5CRBWifXbrMsFoH3jkoFbNhiR2U_
7NK7CgEoXCH0B9GRU6e.3NLJRHRQw5heROYdA
Received: from [75.63.17.18] by web83805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP;
Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:04:23 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950
References: <E1OoQ47-0002Or-UJ@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <E1OoQ47-0002Or-UJ@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Subject: Re: [permaculture] S&M Eisen / Nicholas permaculture generation gap
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:04:26 -0000

I don't think we sold out. I think we built the platform you're standing on
:-).

Not to worry. I know you're younger. I know that doesn't make you one of the
ones who were too busy playing around to listen...

Couldn't resist. Ya have to admit, you asked for that..

Linda :-)
One of those awful Boomers :-)

Boomers, the first cut-and-come-again crop.
The Meek shall inherit the Earth.



________________________________
From: Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 5:11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap


Boomers sold out.  They did not demand the kind of change they really wanted
and settled for the status Que. As a reward they have been ripped off and
side lined, ultimately settling for rank materialism and prescription feel
good drugs.  The boomers should get off the couch, get their heads out of
their behinds and work for the values they espoused as young people. Or
perhaps they can't remember what it was they wanted.  Or have the real
visionaries been liquidated? Have the rats ate the grain and all that is
left is the chaff?


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Rain Tenaqiya
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:15 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap

Thanks, Nicholas, for one of the more thoughtful and solution-focused
messages of late.  I have been thinking about the generational differences
between Boomers and younger folks, especially as they relate to permaculture
efforts, and I do feel they are significant.  I largely agree with your
analysis, however I feel there is one important aspect that you left out. 
Boomers may have had it easier in some ways, but many were truly
hard-working pioneers in other ways, creating options for later
generations.  We now have easy access to vegetarian and vegan food,
renewable energy, ecobuilding techniques, community land ownership models,
permaculture design, etc.  Many also worked harder than I think most younger
folks are willing to work.  The stories I have read and listened to about
the original back-to-the-landers make me feel like a wimp.  The current
generation has a sense of entitlement and an expectation that things should
be easy.  They are
also even more alienated from physical labor.  I speak from personal
experience.  Younger people also have more educational, entertainment, and
other opportunities and the society is more mobile, so it is hard to get
younger folks to commit to a place or project.  Whole segments of society
seem adrift. 
 
Your comment about rent-seeking retirees seems right on, however.  I feel
too many otherwise progressive folks too easily accept the idea that it is
okay to take money you didn't earn yourself.  The lack of questioning of the
capitalist, class-based system makes me squirm.  On the other hand, I cringe
when I see how few of my well-intentioned friends have means to create
sustainable systems without using the property they have access to to
generate money through renting it out.  We need to come up with more ways to
raise immediate funds while still giving equity to those paying "rent."
 
 
Rain


     
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring

>From lindaray@att.net Thu Aug 26 21:39:58 2010
Return-Path: <lindaray@att.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id BBAEB4C049; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:39:58 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,REMOVE_BEFORE_LINK,
SARE_HIRISK_FORGED_ATT autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from n79.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com (n79.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
[98.136.44.39])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 945DE4C021
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:39:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n79.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:39:54 -0000
Received: from [69.147.84.102] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:39:54 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
27 Aug 2010 01:39:54 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 660655.9281.bm@omp206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 95812 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Aug 2010 01:39:54 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024;
t82873194; bh=ulDHCuQQh5ewYvpJChCOZisNoAwhTXETHuR/D7YQn98=;

h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;

b=oL9hWprup1ZWGTMXVILQ0kH4XtFoUseVN9T6qks2cTTm1i8DFJy7oqSnZRqSemCRZ3lqQ5fJmVZAmq1WLrcpepSN8CAsZfpE4JLx+4pL+rLo/QEAPaOqTCXSRSWvvA4h7gURDsOLWuD60CsiLaUbYuxL7m8VJYCUohm6vn323QMDomainKey-Signature:
a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net;

h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;

b=apuDJ+Sgi2JT+uAYAxiEEInEnkSNpuxk39H3gLawqAW+MI5Rsph+0Q9HHPCtFJoH3d/4t29rRUJF0KGnQN5LPM/rtke2Wn+HR0CUIGmd2Yg+r4tWDE0XymD2UDMLXHWLm3Bne1v31pKC4F9b2x3rzB636+YLY4gjGUpx7MjWnfc=;
Message-ID: <537443.94804.qm@web83802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: 4krlalkVM1mwBq166OaI5.44xTCmSkRL3pH.G5VC96elWu.
267o4dk548Z92cYaBcVBXLTxmXuxDlMxl582dtrPh.zZj.dYEyOEVbw6Ykzv
YPsoxBt3VeXXH3aMi_y9jRD484xBoXBCfdkPjfYuWb2.gnKUuEmc3GEE8YKg
uydlf4FihdloEVFYgaIwr8YC.YF_vfKtifVbNl9qoJDKwJOp_o9UReYV8Kcn
IH2WGqSEp1JR_kFL_U_hklEeKnC_LwrRrpCpwcsnbTk5sAIC7fHyQvu3B6Rq
PJ9hiWCJGmjbsq9Me29Fb4dm8fBPE70EL_wbHjYuSVgDVMiCYkLG3Oc52Tmv
3ELvt1hS6MHmh1FCwODzo19FUhfNuEs0FUk70
Received: from [75.63.17.18] by web83802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP;
Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:39:54 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950
References: <E1Oofev-0002SW-Ct@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
<6D03E141-CF25-4DC0-9F4F-50587BAD4939@book-woman.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <6D03E141-CF25-4DC0-9F4F-50587BAD4939@book-woman.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:39:58 -0000

I agree with Jacques and feel the same way you do (Jacques, Margaret, Steven)
about the wars, gulag, other bad junk going on.

Please recall that psyops are a major part of the way those evil types
attempt
to manipulate their prey. Anyone susceptible to their manipulation 
*instantly*
becomes part of the problem. Anyone impervious to it *instantly* becomes part
of
the solution.

Just this afternoon I noticed spray-painted in huge letters on the side of a
city building "Free Speech Goes Here". Nobody passing on the street could
miss
those words.


I was thinking about this earlier today-
Whoever painted that has already made a difference, and with one simple act
has
reached many thousands of people.
Some people help by working out in the open;
Some people help by working out of obvious sight;
Some people help by holding the status quo so that things don't destabilize
too
fast;
Some people help by simply being good people, and doing whatever they can to
"hold the light" and improve things wherever they are. 

IMHO it will work best to hold our sights on our *similarities*, and I think
taking that stance will facilitate this communication.

This is the perfect testing ground, right here where we are on this internet.
We
are learning to heal breaches in congruence between how we live and what the
Earth needs to remain healthy. If we can be divided by conditioned thinking,
it
is easier to detect and remedy that here. *Before* everything redlines.

Namaste,

Linda



________________________________
From: Jacque Greenleaf <jacque@book-woman.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 10:07:16 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap

You are hardly alone in your feelings. We just have to keep on keeping on.
There's literally nothing else to do!


On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer wrote:

> I agree that my statement that Boomers are sell outs is a gross
> generalization and for that I stand corrected.
> I am at the tail end of the boomer wave and have interacted with my peers my
> entire life (Boomers), as a business person, artist/designer and a farmer.
> I have witnessed the destruction of civil society, the loss of culture and
> the rank lies that have constructed the current gestalt we live in here in
> the USA.  I have seen one war after another that has led me to believe that
> we are in endless wars for profit.  I have witnessed the loss of our
> nation's physical health due to a policy of food as a weapon and
> unbelievable greed (value added anyone?).  I have witnessed my nation become
> a gulag much like the police state we were told to fear in the old Soviet
> Union.  I have had success and been punished for it by those that wish to
> maintain a corrupt status quo.  I also am aware that many Americans are
> dependent on prescription drugs in order to deal with the morass that we now
> find ourselves in. I also bear no ill will towards boomers, just a
> resounding sadness for where we find ourselves now and the resolve to not
> put any of my pennies in the wrong cups.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jacque
> Greenleaf
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:25 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap
>
> This is a gross overgeneralization.
>
> First of all, most boomers were not countercultural. I graduated from a
> fairly large high school in 1965, and I would bet that the wildest things
> most of my classmates ever dreamed of doing was smoke a joint or two (and
> then spend years hiding that fact from their kids) and have sex before
> marriage. To be fair, that was indeed extremely wild, if you were the child
> of midwestern or southern depression babies, believe me. Families fractured
> permanently over these actions.
>
> For the minority of us who were genuinely countercultural, we thought
> changing the world completely would only take a decade or so. Wrong then,
> and still wrong.
>
> I personally have never stopped working for the values I espoused when I was
> young. I was a huge disappointment to my right-wing mother until the day she
> died. It didn't stop me.
>
> I'm really curious, what experience have you had with people my age that has
> led you to be so sour and judgmental?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer wrote:
>
>>
>> Boomers sold out.  They did not demand the kind of change they really
> wanted
>> and settled for the status Que. As a reward they have been ripped off and
>> side lined, ultimately settling for rank materialism and prescription feel
>> good drugs.  The boomers should get off the couch, get their heads out of
>> their behinds and work for the values they espoused as young people. Or
>> perhaps they can't remember what it was they wanted.  Or have the real
>> visionaries been liquidated? Have the rats ate the grain and all that is
>> left is the chaff?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Rain Tenaqiya
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:15 PM
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [permaculture] Nicholas permaculture generation gap
>>
>> Thanks, Nicholas, for one of the more thoughtful and solution-focused
>> messages of late.  I have been thinking about the generational differences
>> between Boomers and younger folks, especially as they relate to
> permaculture
>> efforts, and I do feel they are significant.  I largely agree with your
>> analysis, however I feel there is one important aspect that you left out.
>> Boomers may have had it easier in some ways, but many were truly
>> hard-working pioneers in other ways, creating options for later
>> generations.  We now have easy access to vegetarian and vegan food,
>> renewable energy, ecobuilding techniques, community land ownership models,
>> permaculture design, etc.  Many also worked harder than I think most
> younger
>> folks are willing to work.  The stories I have read and listened to about
>> the original back-to-the-landers make me feel like a wimp.  The current
>> generation has a sense of entitlement and an expectation that things
> should
>> be easy.  They are
>> also even more alienated from physical labor.  I speak from personal
>> experience.  Younger people also have more educational, entertainment, and
>> other opportunities and the society is more mobile, so it is hard to get
>> younger folks to commit to a place or project.  Whole segments of society
>> seem adrift.
>>
>> Your comment about rent-seeking retirees seems right on, however.  I feel
>> too many otherwise progressive folks too easily accept the idea that it is
>> okay to take money you didn't earn yourself.  The lack of questioning of
> the
>> capitalist, class-based system makes me squirm.  On the other hand, I
> cringe
>> when I see how few of my well-intentioned friends have means to create
>> sustainable systems without using the property they have access to to
>> generate money through renting it out.  We need to come up with more ways
> to
>> raise immediate funds while still giving equity to those paying "rent."
>>
>>
>> Rain
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring

>From leeflier@comcast.net Thu Aug 26 22:45:33 2010
Return-Path: <leeflier@comcast.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 62C834C049; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:45:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net
(qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.56])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0208B4C021
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:45:29 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28])
by qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id zEa61e0020cZkys56ElW5T; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:45:30 +0000
Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([98.230.176.69])
by omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id zElW1e0011WD3gJ3WElW1X; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:45:30 +0000
Message-ID: <4C7726C6.1090008@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:45:26 -0400
From: Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US;
rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <327863.81928.qm@web57612.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <327863.81928.qm@web57612.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture enlightenment for the military
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:45:33 -0000

On 8/26/2010 8:55 PM, Patrick wrote:
> If we work with the military we become become tacit apologists for war
> whether we intend to or not.

No, we really don't.

The military is made up of human beings, most of whom have a sincere
desire to serve - that is, to provide a service that is actually
valuable to us, namely to defend us in the event that we ever really
need it. That politicians (let's not forget that the military is
ultimately directed by civilians) often send these folks to give their
lives for an evil cause doesn't change that. So supporting the military
while opposing war is really not at all contradictory.

Furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we have troops occupying a
lot of places right now. We can certainly do everything in our power to
change that as voters, as activists, whatever means we have at our
disposal... but the reality is they're there right now. So if any
damage to the earth or the local people, any at all, can be prevented by
the troops having permaculture training, are you /really /saying you
don't want that training to happen? Over fear of sounding like an
"apologist for war?" Really?




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page