permaculture

[Christophe McKeon <polypus74@gmail.com>]

>  I can't help but feel Toby's comments are somewhat defeatist.
>

I don't think so at all, quite the opposite. I think he is applying an
ecological perspective to human social organization.


> No one person can know everything.  There
> may be an issue of semantics here but to me being self sufficient
> doesn't mean you have to be an isolationist.  If you have extra crops
> and barter them for a tool you need, is that not still self
> sufficient?  I suppose by it's definition it's not, however, I would
> say it is.  Is it self reliance or self sufficiency we should be
> striving for?
>


>  Honestly I don't care I just want to be able to support
> myself and my family as much as possible without outside inputs.
> Saying we shouldn't strive for that, to me, is not permaculture.
>
>
Permaculture is all about matching outputs to inputs, to cut off outside
inputs as a matter of principle is to go against, and not with the grain of
permaculture, imho. What of the family who supplied the tool that you
needed, scavenging for and repairing/forging tools for trade, should they
also grow all of their food, would they then have time to supply functional
tools to their little ecologically sound community? Maybe they'd grow only
some of their food and rely precisely on inputs/outputs with the 'outside'
world. How do they fit into the self-sufficiency model?

Another closely related point to ponder is that when you say 'self
sufficient' you really mean your family. I think that it is no accident that
the unit of political organization in the over-developed world happens to be
the nuclear family. My point is that 'self' is actually a slippery concept.
What if you extended self to be your village for example, or better, your
bioregion. What happens to 'self' and 'outside' then?

I think that Toby is probably grappling with what is going to happen to the
more than 50% of humanity which has now been urbanized. In those cases
self-sufficiency is out of the question, as traditionally envisioned, and
population density is going to require tremendously creative solutions which
maximize rather than minimize input/output relationships. I think a certain
amount of population diffusion is inevitable as are other mass human
migrations in the not too far distant future, but that's a different
question.

Just to be clear, I think that to try to be self sufficient as you describe
it is an admirable goal, if anything because of what you will be able to
teach others as the world continues to crumble, but i don't think it is the
only way to look at permaculture, and certainly not it's definition.

peace,
_c

>
>

> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Joan Huyser-Honig <joan@hhcreatives.com>
> wrote:
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > I've been reading these exchanges with Toby and am impressed with your
> > diplomatic responses and non-defensiveness.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Joan
> >
> > Joan Huyser-Honig
> > Huyser-Honig Creative Services
> > 1016 Oakdale Street SE
> > Grand Rapids, MI  49507
> >
> > Telling Your Stories, Advancing Your Cause
> >
> > Phone: (616) 241-0931 x11
> > Fax: (616) 241-1500
> > joan@hhcreatives.com
> > www.hhcreatives.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence F.
> > London, Jr.
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:20 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
> > Self-Reliant
> >
> > Richard Archer wrote:
> >> At 11:50 PM -0400 12/5/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> >>
> >>> If it becomes a popular idea for everyone to try and become food
> >>> self-sufficient in a bioregion then, with urban and rural farms
> >>> involved, trying to meet the needs of a limited number of customers or
> >>> coop members only in their immediate locale, then you just might be
> able
> >>> to have enough cereals, nuts, fruits, herbs to go around with the rest
> >>> of the growers supplying vegetables or other services in barter or for
> >>> sale but through their immediate network.
> >>
> >> Lawrence,
> >>
> >> I think you should go back and read Toby's essay again.
> >> You're railing against it, yet in your two responses
> >> you have made several points supporting his conclusion.
> >>
> >> Just above for example you've made the point that in order
> >> to be self-sufficient in food you need a community with
> >> different people specialising in different areas and
> >> trading with each other.
> >>
> >> Which is exactly the point Toby is making.
> >> You can't do it alone, you need community.
> >>
> >> Permaculture is all about networks and interactions.
> >
> > Amen Richard, thanks for reminding me and apologies to Toby!
> >
> > It IS all about networking.
> > I just meant closer, better organized and dedicated networks
> > participating in achieving local food self-sufficiency and increasing
> > the bounty ofered by local foodsheds. It affects everyone.
> >
> > ...:LL
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