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  • From: Kevin Topek <ktopek@att.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
  • Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 22:12:24 -0500

Lawrence,

I'll agree with one point of your scree against Toby's comment, that it was utter horse manure. What Toby said was nutrient dense (full of thought provoking ideas), will improve with age (while those concepts sink into one's thoughts) and will allow for future growth with time (those concepts will work their way into making a better system).

I do produce a lot of our food intake from a small urban plot. I have recently had food thieves. It is driving me crazy with anger. I have shared so much from my yard with friends, family, neighbors, my employees and subcontractors. Then this is the thanks I get.

I can not produce my own cereals, fats, chocolate or meats on this space. I leave that to those who do it more efficiently and better. Toby is calling for a balanced approach and view. He is also entitled to his opinion. Besides he actually casts a large shadow with his written word.

There are some naysayers saying a lot here. I wonder how many trees they have planted recently. How many gardens have they planted this year. How much walk do they put behind their big talk. I'm tired and dirty from planting all day and most every other one too. Are you?

Kevin Topek



On May 12, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:


Toby Hemenway wrote:
On May 12, 2010, at 10:28 AM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:

That seems so disappointing, an elitist attitude that discourages
people from growing all their own food . . . . I find that
independence impossible in anywhere but the most remote regions, I
am returning to those locales, which to me is the REAL WORLD

Reality is often more disappointing than dreaming of something we've
never tried; yes, my point was indeed to discourage people from the

Trying something and failing, though disappointing, is better than not
having tried. What do you know about the reality of homesteading (urban
or rural) for self sufficiency and independence? You said sometime ago
that you gave up your rural lifestyle to live in the city. Fine, but do
not criticise others living a rural lifestyle intent on surviving and
remaining on their land; maybe they have no other option.

simplistic, near-impossible fantasy that when it gets tough they can
just grow all their own food. I hope that idea dies soon; it's a

Simple lifestyle, yes. Frugal and efficient. As if millions of folks all
over the world aren't in need of this approach to living these days.
You think the multinational vertically integrated agriculture
corporations, IMF, UN, Red Cross, etc are going to feed them?

Good grief, you hope that idea dies soon...say it isn't so, Toby.
For someone who has written a great book on permaculture you're not much
help or encouragement. I think you've signed onto the wrong forum;
you need one that is 99% rhetoric and politics and .99% corporate
funding and .01% action.

I think you've fallen off the edge of the Earth. Now I am wondering if
Toby's account has been hacked and you are not who you claim to be. This
is what I might expect to hear from a Monsanto greenwashing PR agent.
You seem intent on trashing the decades of work by hundreds of thousands
of folks. I can't believe what you've written. My thoughts about it:
total and utter horsemanure. You do not know what you are talking about.

terrible deterrent to facing a real solution. I beg you all: Stop
thinking that way! And, James, when you return to the "real world,"
of the wild, just remember who made your equipment for you; that's
how self-reliant you'll be. The "I'll harvest the wild" dream only

Maybe he won't need much equipment or will make his own from scratch.

insures the destruction of the last wild places.That's
anti-permaculture: stay out of the bush, says Mollison, and he's
right. With 7 billion people, all wild resources would be depleted in
a matter of months. I was recently in Alaska, and kept running into
people who thought they'd just hunt after the oil gets scarce. Not
with the size of the population of Alaska. That's a horrifying
thought: goodbye caribou, elk, deer, bear.

Ridiculous. Would you say the same about the American Indians
when they dominated the Plains and fed themselves harvesting the
buffalo? Ever heard of sustainable harvesting?
Encouraging wildlife by protecting and nourishing their habitat, partly
through forest gardening. There is little or no impact on wild animal
populations when harvesting in limited numbers for food, if done
correctly. The Sustainable Urban Homestead and The Sustainable Rural
Homestead are ideally diversified small, mini or micro farms with
livestock. This concept is integral to a realistic survival plan in this
day and time. Being part of a Greater Urban or Rural Homestead, i.e., a
community of farms, or farming cooperative wherein the individual
members supply each other with goods to allow for specialization,
cropping or livestock production, for those lacking either.
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