permaculture

[Kevin Topek <ktopek@att.net>]

Lawrence,

I'll agree with one point of your scree against Toby's comment, that  
it was utter horse manure. What Toby said was nutrient dense (full of  
thought provoking ideas), will improve with age (while those concepts  
sink into one's thoughts) and will allow for future growth with time  
(those concepts will work their way into making a better system).

I do produce a lot of our food intake from a small urban plot. I have  
recently had food thieves. It is driving me crazy with anger. I have  
shared so much from my yard with friends, family, neighbors, my  
employees and subcontractors. Then this is the thanks I get.

I can not produce my own cereals, fats, chocolate or meats on this  
space. I leave that to those who do it more efficiently and better.  
Toby is calling for a balanced approach and view. He is also entitled  
to his opinion. Besides he actually casts a large shadow with his  
written word.

There are some naysayers saying a lot here. I wonder how many trees  
they have planted recently. How many gardens have they planted this  
year. How much walk do they put behind their big talk. I'm tired and  
dirty from planting all day and most every other one too. Are you?

Kevin Topek



On May 12, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > On May 12, 2010, at 10:28 AM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
> >
> > > That seems so disappointing, an elitist attitude that discourages
> > > people from growing all their own food . . . . I find that
> > > independence impossible in anywhere but the most remote regions, I
> > > am returning to those locales, which to me is the REAL WORLD
> >
> > Reality is often more disappointing than dreaming of something we've
> > never tried; yes, my point was indeed to discourage people from the
>
> Trying something and failing, though disappointing, is better than not
> having tried. What do you know about the reality of homesteading  
> (urban
> or rural) for self sufficiency and independence? You said sometime ago
> that you gave up your rural lifestyle to live in the city. Fine, but  
> do
> not criticise others living a rural lifestyle intent on surviving and
> remaining on their land; maybe they have no other option.
>
> > simplistic, near-impossible fantasy that when it gets tough they can
> > just grow all their own food. I hope that idea dies soon; it's a
>
> Simple lifestyle, yes. Frugal and efficient. As if millions of folks  
> all
> over the world aren't in need of this approach to living these days.
> You think the multinational vertically integrated agriculture
> corporations, IMF, UN, Red Cross, etc are going to feed them?
>
> Good grief, you hope that idea dies soon...say it isn't so, Toby.
> For someone who has written a great book on permaculture you're not  
> much
> help or encouragement. I think you've signed onto the wrong forum;
> you need one that is 99% rhetoric and politics and .99% corporate
> funding and .01% action.
>
> I think you've fallen off the edge of the Earth. Now I am wondering if
> Toby's account has been hacked and you are not who you claim to be.  
> This
> is what I might expect to hear from a Monsanto greenwashing PR agent.
> You seem intent on trashing the decades of work by hundreds of  
> thousands
> of folks. I can't believe what you've written. My thoughts about it:
> total and utter horsemanure. You do not know what you are talking  
> about.
>
> > terrible deterrent to facing a real solution. I beg you all: Stop
> > thinking that way!  And, James, when you return to the "real world,"
> > of the wild, just remember who made your equipment for you; that's
> > how self-reliant you'll be. The "I'll harvest the wild" dream only
>
> Maybe he won't need much equipment or will make his own from scratch.
>
> > insures the destruction of the last wild places.That's
> > anti-permaculture: stay out of the bush, says Mollison, and he's
> > right. With 7 billion people, all wild resources would be depleted in
> > a matter of months. I was recently in Alaska, and kept running into
> > people who thought they'd just hunt after the oil gets scarce. Not
> > with the size of the population of Alaska. That's a horrifying
> > thought: goodbye caribou, elk, deer, bear.
>
> Ridiculous. Would you say the same about the American Indians
> when they dominated the Plains and fed themselves harvesting the
> buffalo? Ever heard of sustainable harvesting?
> Encouraging wildlife by protecting and nourishing their habitat,  
> partly
> through forest gardening. There is little or no impact on wild animal
> populations when harvesting in limited numbers for food, if done
> correctly. The Sustainable Urban Homestead and The Sustainable Rural
> Homestead are ideally diversified small, mini or micro farms with
> livestock. This concept is integral to a realistic survival plan in  
> this
> day and time. Being part of a Greater Urban or Rural Homestead,  
> i.e., a
> community of farms, or farming cooperative wherein the individual
> members supply each other with goods to allow for specialization,
> cropping or livestock production, for those lacking either.
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