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  • From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
  • To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
  • Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 10:28:16 -0700


That seems so disappointing, an elitist attitude that discourages people from
growing all their own food and instead keeps them dependent on getting their
sustenance from somewhere else. Unless your food comes from your yard and the
woods nearby, it is not truly local. If you can't pack your harvest home
without a bike or even more complex transport mode, it's not local.
We did grow or wild-gather all our food WHEN we lived in the wilderness, and
since I find that independence impossible in anywhere but the most remote
regions, I am returning to those locales, which to me is the REAL WORLD, as
Nature crafted it rather as humankind tries to assemble as an imitation of
Nature. Sometimes I wonder if for some permaculturists the meaning of
permanent is more a testament to their own anthropocentric urge to design and
control instead of a sustainable lifestyle based on what Nature provides.

> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:18:59 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
> Self-Reliant
>
> I did a little thinking along these lines in a piece called "The Myth of
> Self Reliance"
>
> http://www.patternliteracy.com/selfreliancemyth.html
>
> I don't know anyone who is growing all their own food. Or even most of it.
> Veggies, yes, but that's only about 20% of your calories. So I think the
> "how much land" question for an individual is mostly fantasy, or an
> academic exercise. Interesting, but not put into practice. It's not how
> we're going to solve food security.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On May 11, 2010, at 8:05 AM, lbsaltzman@aol.com wrote:
>
> > An interesting article but I see one thing missing and that is
> > community.
> > We should be thinking how communities whether neighborhoods, villages,
> > or
> > intentional communities become self-sufficient, not how individuals
> > become
> > self-sufficient.
> >
> > Larry Saltzman
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/11/2010 6:33:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > forestgarden@gvtc.com writes:
> >
> > How much land does it take?
> >
> > When thinking of becoming self-reliant, the questiona risies "how much
> > land do I need to be able to sustainably grow enough food for my
> > family?" The exact answer to that question depends on several factors,
> > but you can learn a lot, and make a pretty good estimate, by looking at
> > some scenarios that span the various alternatives.
> >
> > Lets start first off with the almost magical dream of the pure
> > hunter/gatherer. I often hear this one from those concerned about a
> > collapse of civilization. The shit hits the fan and you take your rifle
> > and a few supplies and head out to the wilderness to live off the land.
> > Just how much land does it take to support you without destroying all
> > the wildlife and plant populations? How much area do you need in order
> > live /sustainably/ as a hunter/gatherer?
> >
> > Since there are so few actual hunter/gathers left alive on the planet,
> > and the few places where they do still exist tend to be jungles which
> > look nothing like anything in North America, we will turn to
> > anthropological data. The quick and easy answer is that traditional
> > peoples used on average, about 10 square miles per person. 10 square
> > miles is 6,400 acres - that is for one person. There are numerous
> > studies and authors that cite this number and one of the most accessible
> > is Jared Diamond author of the popular title /Collapse: How Societies
> > Choose To Fail or Succeed/. Another excellent source is /Tending The
> > Wild: Native American Knowledge and the Management of California's
> > Natural Resources/ which is a wonderful book detailing how sustainable
> > wild-crafting is more about taking care of the land than simply taking
> > stuff. California's lush and diverse landscapes were able to support
> > some of the highest native population densities known in North America
> > with the highest being almost 1.5 people per square mile living on the
> > coast of the Santa Barbara channel. The plant and animal communities in
> > the Santa Barbara area have been largely destroyed by modern peoples and
> > that density is no longer possible today of course. As another
> > comparison, desert regions of California had roughly 1 person per 12.5
> > square miles.
> >
> > Before we head off into other more obtainable land use scenarios, lets
> > pause for a moment to acknowledge that in addition to having access to a
> > huge tract of land for living the hunter/gatherer lifestyle, you also
> > need at least a decade to learn the many, many, skills of living such as
> > tracking and hunting, trapping, botany, weather cycles, fiber and
> > cordage, shelter, tool making, fire starting, tanning, and so much more.
> >
> > OK, so you won't be going that primitive. What about you growing your
> > own food in gardens, food plots, orchards, livestock, and perhaps a bit
> > of hunting? Agriculture has gotten us the these high population levels
> > so far anyway, hasn't it? Yes it has, and small scale agriculture is
> > definitely the way to go for most people. So how much land are you
> > going to need for that?
> >
> > The research to the answer to that question was started back in the 70's
> > by a very forward thinking man named John Jeavons. The work has
> > continued since then and a method developed into a system called
> > "Bio-Intensive Gardening". The Bio-Intensive method has been
> > implemented worldwide to alleviate hunger and malnutrition. There is a
> > wealth of detail in the entire Bio-intensive method, but the short
> > answer to how much land you need can be summarized as approximately
> > 8,000 sq.ft. for a complete diet for one person (you need 4,000 sq/ft.
> > of actual growing space and at least 4,000 sq.ft. for pathways and
> > access). That is also assuming you have four growing seasons per year.
> > So if you can only get two growing seasons, then you need to double the
> > space needed per person. For reference, an acre is 43,560 sq.ft. So in
> > a more southern climate, you could theoretically support about 5 people
> > per acre.
> >
> > The absolute best reference for the Bio-Intensive method is the book
> > /How To Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible On Less Land
> > Than You Can Imagined /by John Jeavons. And for another comparison,
> > with data taken from Jeavons book, the average U.S. diet with
> > conventional farming requires 15,000 to 30,0000 sq.ft. and is done in
> > such a way that it diminishes soil -- i.e. it is not sustainable.
> >
> > So small scale agriculture is definitely going to be your best bet. My
> > personal experience is that 2 acres in a temperate region will
> > completely wear you out and is enough room to comfortably support a
> > family of four with a variety of food sources such as gardens, orchards,
> > small livestock, and wild crafting. You can still do a lot in less
> > area, and of course, everyone always wants more. Some caveats I've got
> > to throw in there is you definitely need about a decade of experience to
> > homestead like this, and you also need enough water. An excellent
> > source for seeing a what a diverse sustainable homestead on small
> > acreage looks like is the video tutorial package titled /Food Production
> > Systems for a Backyard or Small Farm./ The video they have created
> > shows in good detail the systems they've setup to generate a lot of
> > calories per year, how they did it, and why. It is a good example by
> > folks who are actually living it.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > More information:
> > http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
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> > And: http://www.richsoil.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > More information:
> > http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > And: http://www.richsoil.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> And: http://www.richsoil.com

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