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[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

Robert Walton wrote:
> It's strange to me that we make illegal immigrants an issue in the 
> health reform debate. It seems more logical to have an immigration 
> debate to discuss illegals.

This issue definitely came through the back door, didn't it?


> My thought is that if someone is here illegally, the United States is
>  at least partially to blame for that.

I tend to agree, especially with your last comments in this post that I
erased.  There are just no easy answers.  Since you have lived in
Central America, I'll ask you this question.  If the US spent billions
on countries in Central America, say Guatemala and Nicaragua  and
Honduras, (not the more touristy Belize, Panama and Costa Rica) the way
we pour money into Bangladesh, Indonesia and Israel, do you think
conditions there would improve and that that would slow down the
emigration from those countries?  The way I have always seen it is that
we end up paying one way or the other-we either pay when they come here,
or we pay to try to make their lives better there.   Do you, Rob, think
we need a wall to protect our borders, both northern and southern, just
southern, or neither?  I think you support border walls if I recall.

What else do you think we should do to work on this problem?  I think
the Coast Guard and the Border Guards should merge into a new fourth
branch of the military that we literally could call Homeland Security
Forces.  Many who would normally be conscientious objectors to serving
in the regular military would or could serve in the protection of our
borders, stoppling smuggling and terrorism and who all knows what else.
  Just as the Coast Guard provides medical and humanitarian aid to
sinking ships now, the HomeSec Force would provide similar aid to
smuggling victims.  These forces would carry weapons, but primarily they
would be trained more in medicine than warfare.  I just think we need
better plans for programs.  The way we do things now is unorganized and
inefficient, unfair and often inhumane.



Morally, assuring that sick people have
> access to basic care or at least trying to provide that is a good 
> goal. If there are illegals here, I'd treat them as any other human 
> being and treat them.

To what point.  I mean, that is a wonderful gesture, but let's say you
have extended family here illegally.  Do you get a second and third
mortgage on your place to pay for their healthcare should they need it?
 If Jose is illegal and uninsured and needs a heart transplant, should
he be on the same waiting list as someone who HAS mortgaged everything
to pay for the surgery? Will you, with your tax dollars, buy the
medicine Jose needs for the rest of his life?  I think these are
questions we need to answer.  I'm not saying that Jose should not get a
heart transplant, what I am saying is that I don't want to pay for it
and that I think Jose should get his medical care from his own country's
medical system.  If his own country cannot provide care that he can
afford, then  he should be able to go to a country where he can afford
it(like Americans going to India for surgeries) as long as he does it
legally. When the secondary country finally cried Uncle or No Mas or
whatever, then Jose must find another alternative.  Costa Rica has
better healthcare(according to the WHO) than the Us, and Costa Rican
hospitals are closer to El Salvador than US hospitals.
Note:  Take the WHO list for whatever it is worth...India is listed as
116 and the US is listed as 37. Gil, Canada is #30, El Salvador is 115.

> If there is a problem that we can not afford to or do not want to 
> provide for illegals like we do any other human, we should take 
> measures to stop or reduce illegal aliens. That would mean 
> immigration reform.

We definitely need immigration reform.
> There is no real way for a poor Salvadoran to apply to come here 
> legally. Anyone that gets a visa is a person of means in El Salvador.
>
>
>
> When there are extra jobs in the US (now is not one of those times), 
> a person in El Salvador that wants to come here, pays a Coyote around
>  $10,000. You pay half up front and the other half when they get you 
> here. If you don't pay the last half, the coyote kills your family.

My friend Ramon has paid a coyote twice.  His story is long, and he is
currently back in Mexico-deported when he went through the proper
channels after his daughter was born here.  Ramon paid 10K, and the
coyote bound and left him and about 15 others in a house near the border
for 3 days.  He lived in his own filth.  Then, they were loaded on a
truck, taken to the border, crossed, and they were abandoned in the
desert with a quart of water.

Human smuggling is like child molestation or prostitution-the weak
become prey.  It is a horrible, horrible thing, and when you hear these
coyote stories, you literally want to grab the 'illegal' hug them and
reassure them that they are safe now.  I know another woman who came
here on a makeshift raft from Cuba.  She lost her daughter to sharks on
the journey.  People are desperate to escape the conditions of their
home country and it is heartbreaking.  However, there are people who
were born right here who are in just as dire of straits and who also
need help.  We mustn't forget the poor and homeless and isolated in our
own country.   If we have a fund set up for indigent care, like a Gates
fund or a Jobs fund, then I personally believe that some poor, uninsured
guy in Appalachia should receive the funds BEFORE illegal Jose from El
Salvador.  That is not to deny Jose, but just a matter of taking care of
our own first.

> Once you get here, you grub for dirty work, accept less pay and 
> usually pay taxes (working under a fake social security number). You 
> don't live a great life, you live a cheaply as you can and send money
>  home. You usually have to pay back $10, 000 you borrowed from
> family. $10,000 is a lot more money in El Salvador (remember these
> are really poor people). You are working at $7 or less an hour and
> paying that $10,000 takes a long time.
>
> If you are lucky, you get the $10, 00 payed back and you are able to 
> send money home to help improve life for your family. They depend on 
> you, and you don't want to let them down. You work as many hours/jobs
>  as you can. If you are young, you try to do the things that young 
> people do (date, marry, have kids, raise kids).

That is a good assessment, Rob.  Thanks for succinctly telling their story.



--
Sleep well tonight, for somewhere in the ocean's depths, MY son is
protecting your freedom on the USS Key West, currently deployed
somewhere in the Pacific and/or Indian Ocean.  Go Navy!
EarthNSky Farm, NW Georgia, USA