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[Lynn Wigglesworth <lynnw1366 AT hotmail.com>]

EarthNSky wrote:

> Right, but there is some contact with those groups or people who 
> represent those groups.  If there had been no contact, no exposure, 
> there would have been no perceived threat to protect against and 
> therefore no 'anti' laws to begin with.  Those laws continue to harm 
> future generations of people, strangers, that had nothing to do with the 
> original case.

Again, I disagree. Some people see the mere existence of something as a 
threat, and that, I think, is where the biggest danger lies. Why is gay 
marriage banned in so many places? What possible threat is it, except to 
some people's idea of right and wrong? The Bible says it's wrong, so you 
don't need an example in front of you to think it's wrong. The hatred of 
gays was implanted in a person long before that person met anyone gay. 
The churches/people who are so vehemently against homosexuality in 
general aren't talking about a specific person or couple...there is no 
'original case'. To them, it's just plain wrong, and NO ONE should be 
allowed to do it. Like witchcraft...the hatred was already there, so 
they had to go out and find people to punish for it. Has there ever been 
any evidence conclusive enough to burn a witch? "My crops 
failed..hmmm...that Bev talks to plants"; "She's a witch...burn her". 
I'd not liked to lived in those times. Or be a Wiccan in Texas today, 
where the head of a Baptist church says the government should napalm 
Wiccans. The hatred was there long before the Wiccans formed a coven in 
Texas.


> So, conversely, intolerance is unacceptance of a person as they are and 
> actively discriminating against them or trying to change them.  I think 
> for that to happen, there is some dislike there already. You call it 
> allowing them to be/believe/live, and I call it neutral acts...I go 
> about my business in a way that doesn't encourage or condemn.

Sure, I'll accept 'neutral'...live and let live. But I'd also fight for 
their right to be different, even if I didn't fully agree with their view.

> So since I used you in my example, and since you have delineated the 
> process above, go back and in the example I suggested about the nasty 
> gang member who moved in your building and is now threatening you...how 
> do you negotiate and compromise there?
> 
That has nothing to do with tolerance. Threatening is illegal, and for 
good reason. It is an act against someone and is not acceptable in our 
society. No negotiation or compromise. Personal freedoms only extend 
until they start to take away someone else's personal freedoms. The 
majority rules on where those lines are.

If the person's beliefs in threatening people are that strong, he'll 
have to go find somewhere where it is acceptable. There are what I 
consider violations of my personal freedoms in the city...the constant 
noise, the drunks screaming in the street at 2am...but these are 
accepted by the majority. I didn't like the culture of the city, so 
rather than try to change millions of people, I found somewhere I like.
> 
>> Intolerance isn't always a bad thing. There are lots of things that we, 
>> as individuals and a society SHOULDN'T tolerate. Crime, abuse, 
>> discrimination, etc. That's where judgment comes in...deciding what is 
>> actually a threat to social order (murder, robbery, etc), and what is 
>> merely an offense to someone's idea of 'right', but doesn't hurt anyone 
>> (homosexuality, different religious views, etc.). And yes, I've known 
>> some atheists who were as intolerant of other people's beliefs as those 
>> who try to push their religion on others.
> 
> I'd have to agree with that, too.  But we all draw the lines at 
> different places so if you line is further away than mine, does that 
> mean you more more tolerant than me?

I don't know. I don't consider myself overly tolerant if someone's 
actions affect me. I tolerate smokers, but not in my house. I tolerate 
anyone's religious views until they come to my house to 'save' me, or 
try to make me pray their prayers. I'm very much 'live and let live', 
but also "don't impose you views/morality on me".

Lynn Wigglesworth


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