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[Lynn Wigglesworth <lynnw1366 AT hotmail.com>]

Bev; I disagree that you have to be exposed to something to be tolerant 
or intolerant. There are intolerant people who condemn/hate/discriminate 
against people they've never met because of some attribute or behavior 
of that person. Look at laws that discriminate...anti-gay marriage, Jim 
Crow laws, church rules against women priests, etc. These have nothing 
to do with the individuals involved; it is intolerance against entire 
groups of people. In fact, I'd say that if you know someone and don't 
like them, it is more of a dislike for THAT person, not intolerance per se.

Tolerant to me means accepting someone (or a group of 'someones') as 
they are without discriminating or trying to change them. You don't have 
to like or dislike them, just allow them to be/believe/live the way they 
want. Obviously there are clashes when one groups beliefs come up 
against the other groups beliefs; that's where negotiation and 
compromise come in.

Intolerance isn't always a bad thing. There are lots of things that we, 
as individuals and a society SHOULDN'T tolerate. Crime, abuse, 
discrimination, etc. That's where judgment comes in...deciding what is 
actually a threat to social order (murder, robbery, etc), and what is 
merely an offense to someone's idea of 'right', but doesn't hurt anyone 
(homosexuality, different religious views, etc.). And yes, I've known 
some atheists who were as intolerant of other people's beliefs as those 
who try to push their religion on others.

I brought up the past intolerance of the Christian churches to explain 
why I said that I understood why someone like Khalid al-Mansour might 
think that Christians are trying to wipe out Islam. Based on history, 
it's not a totally unreasonable belief.

Lynn Wigglesworth

EarthNSky wrote:
> This brings up a point..
> I would like to know how you guys define intolerant.  There has been
> much ado about this group or that sect being intolerant, so I would like
> to know how exactly you define it.  Is it a personal thought bias?  Is
> it actively going out verbally trashing the intolerant sect, like on an
> email list?  Is it physically going out and doing harm?  What is
> intolerance?
> 
> Here are my thoughts:
> 
> Tolerate...to tolerate something means you really don't like it, but you
> live with it.  You can tolerate someone, their ideas, their culture,
> etc. To tolerate someone, you have to be in proximity to that
> person.  You have to be 'stuck' with them, no escape.  It is easy to
> tolerate people on an email list, because you are not living with them
> or near them and you can always just unsub or turn the computer off or
> delete the message.  To be tolerant of someone means that you tolerate
> them,,,,you don't react to them, you are as neutral towards them in your
> actions and as your thoughts allow, even though you personally don't
> agree or approve of the other person.
> 
> To become tolerant, to have tolerance, one must have contact with
> another.  If you have always been in a homogenous group in your own
> neighborhood, school, workplace, etc. then you have had no opportunity
> to be 'stuck' to learn tolerance...and it must be learned...one
> must learn the process of opening one's own mind to that which is
> strangely, conversely, or irritatingly different, open the mind, 
> understand where the other person gets their beliefs, and try to come to 
> some sort of peace so that the inner conflict doesn't eat you up....
> IMO, one is not being tolerant if they speak(or write) ill of someone or
> something.  One can only claim tolerance if they 1. are in close contact
> with another 2. Have a natural dislike or fear  3. Overcome that dislike
> or fear to the point where one can remain neutral in their actions(they
> can still think ill, but must not act upon it)
> 
> I'm gonna pick on Lynn cuz I know she can take it..
> I know that Lynn lived in the inner-city of Philly for almost 2 decades,
> I think..  I think it is safe to say that she lived with or in close
> proximity to drug users, gangs, and those that shared a
> different culture and world view, to include those decent folks who just
> love living with no yard and in a building with 50 other people or more.
>   I seriously doubt Lynn has ever lived near or worked with surfer
> dudes, those youth of the surfing culture, therefore she would not know
> whether or not she is tolerant of that.  She's probably not familiar 
> with kill the haole....or living within a community of nudists or 
> witches, or Mormons.  Or, perhaps she is tolerant of the gangs she is 
> familiar with, but not tolerant of other gangs.  What if she, for 
> example, was so tolerant of gangs, developing a live and let live 
> philosophy, that one day a new, violent, racist gangbanger moved into 
> her building and threatened her physically, threatened her children, her 
> peace.  What does she do to learn to tolerate them, or does she?  If she 
> is being terrorized by someone who hates her because she is different 
> and wants to do her harm, what does Lynn do to still be considered 
> 'tolerant' of his beliefs and actions?  Is it possible to live and be 
> tolerant in those circumstances-when the other person is intolerant of 
> you?  Does going to the police to complain mean she will be labeled 
> intolerant?
> And where do you draw the line for stating 'history' like reminding 
> folks of the Crusades and the Inquisition, and actually speaking ill of 
>   to denigrate something?  Is that intolerance?
> A lot of people ASSUME that atheists are neutral, but very often, they 
> can be so ANTI-FAITH that that in and of itself is intolerance.  One may 
> be extremely tolerant of say Muslims because they had a Muslim roommate 
> in college, but they make be intolerant of Indians and Pakistanis from 
> anger that they own so many businesses here.
> So I'll be curious as to how y'all think of tolerance, and specifically, 
> I would like you to define intolerance.  At what point is is "ok" to not 
> be tolerant?  Is it ever acceptable?  For me, it is when my survival or 
> my family's survival or way of life is threatened.
> 
> Bev
> 
> 
>>> Lynn, many times on this list I have read your statements about
>>> "Christians trying to wipe out anyone who isn't Christian".
> 
> 
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