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[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

Gene GeRue wrote:
> On Apr 13, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Marie McHarry wrote:
> > Oh, and just by the way, did anyone notice that the only president we
> > have said publicly that he knew his high-level officials were figuring
> > out how much torture was acceptable. We used to consider torture a war
> > crime, not so long ago. Now we ignore it and wonder about the
> > infelicities of a candidate's speech.

See, here is where I part company with you guys..I'm no Bush fan, trust 
me on that, but respectfully, do y'all honestly think Bush invented 
torture??  No, we aren't doing anything now that hasn't been done since 
time began, probably less of it if the truth were known.  What has 
changed is that now it is in the open, up for discussion.  Shedding 
light on an issue or a problem is always the first step to eliminating 
that problem.   Eventually, they will arrive at what we all know in our 
hearts,,,,that torture is unreliable for information gathering and that 
people will say anything to avoid pain, whether it is true or not. I 
think the fact that we are talking about it publicly shows our 
weakness-it amounts to a scare tactic to those who might stand against 
us.  The fact that we would even consider torture means that we are at 
our wits end when it comes to collecting reliable information-we are 
desperate for inside information; we have found a nut that won't crack. 
 In the Cold War, we used to deny that we committed such acts and 
called it torture and a war crime when others did it.   We've had secret 
camps and bases for torture for a long, long time, and it is certainly 
not new to this president or administration.  The only thing Bush can 
take credit for is admitting that it happens and he weakly tries to 
justify it while the world watches us squirm with it, because either 
they don't give a sh**, or they are still doing it secretly, too.
In a world where people die in rioting over freaking cartoons and 
foreign governments demand that we put a leash on our freedoms in order 
to not be offensive, we damn sure better be discussing what is and isn't 
torture.  Is keeping someone awake for a 3 day interrogation torture? 
I'll tell ya man, if our government hears chatter about another 911 and 
has a AlQaida operative in custody, and this guy is known to say, have 
knowledge of viruses or electronics or bombs or whatever, then what do 
you propose to do to get his cooperation?  Oh, and I certainly don't 
think anyone is ignoring anything..Amnesty International and other 
organizations are all over this...


> I think we are so eager to jump on the candidates' imperfections  
> because we are so frustrated with the last seven years of ignorance,  
> arrogance and incompetence.

I agree to a point, Gene.  We do this during every election.  It seems 
in recent history that presidents have held two terms, and this skews 
things a bit, so by the time the 7 or 8 years are up, we are totally fed 
up with the status quo.  That's how Clinton was elected to begin 
with...we were fed up with Reagan Bush legacy.  Then after 8 years of 
Bill's escapades, we decided to give the Republicans another try, and in 
the last eight years, things have just gotten more and more BITTER due 
to the fraudulent election<sic> and widespread disillusionment in '04.
Again, nothing new.



 Folks, truth is, we Americans
> have done about all the bad stuff that we criticize other countries  
> for doing. The rest of the world will remember Abu Ghraib for far  
> longer than we can try to push it out of our minds. The rest of the  
> world will remember the preemptive invasion of sovereign Iraq long  
> after the last US military person has left.

You are exactly right on Abu Ghraib.  I'm not sure your conclusions are 
correct on the invasion, however.  I recall that we signed a cease-fire 
in 1991, not a peace treaty..so it wasn't truly pre-emptive as the 
conditions of the cease-fire weren't being met.


> My hope is for a president with intelligence, who can speak  
> coherently, who sees the advantage of talking to rivals, who has  
> insight on important issues but openly asks for input on all sides,  
> who tries hard to represent all of America, not just the top few  
> percent of income earners. The last seven years have put us in a  
> helluva hole and we have a whole lot of shoring and digging to do.

I hope for that, too, but I also want a president who is tough as nails 
and who won't placate the enemy with liberal diplomacy-but one who will 
carry that big stick that Roosevelt talked of..
I don't think any one candidate can ever represent all of America..O-man 
certainly doesn't, and after his comments, a few more Americans have a 
bitter taste in their mouths.

Bev


--
BevanRon of EarthNSky Farm   NW Georgia USDA Zone 7
34.498N 85.076W    Bev is Earth, Ron is Sky