permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I don't think that "fair share" means that everybody has exactly the same 
amount of everything. That gets into central distribution communism and is a 
non sustainable and failed system. What I think fair share means is that 
people get a fair share of what they produce. It goes a lot deeper than that, 
but that's the soundbite version. You also need to look at the fact that 
$7000 in some places goes a lot further than it does in other places (like 
Los Angeles, for instance). 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
OldSystem
 
I think an important thing to keep mind when contemplating "fair
share":  the average world income is $7000 (annual).  So if anybody is
earning more than that and not giving a bunch of it away to people
with less than that - to the point that you keep less than $7000, it
seems less than ethical to speak of "fair share".

I think something similar can be said of property which would include
possessions and real estate.

I like the idea that John Stewart exercises permaculture and advocates
permaculture.   Could John Stewart advocate polyculture?  Maybe talk
about a bit of land that he has where 60 people live there and
practice permaculture?  I think it is not only plausible - but it
would be an awesome thing.

-- 

Sign up for my daily-ish email, or my devious plots for world
domination:  http://www.richsoil.com/email.jsp
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:46:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite "better
        than PV panels?"
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What is the most ethical, least toxic and polluting energy production method 
that you know of that is available for individual use? I understand that 
reducing energy needs is the top of the list and first action. But say that 
you have a laptop you need to power, or need to pump rainwater somewhere, or 
have a community center where you are having a conference on how to get 
permaculture design implemented in a city, etc. What state of the art energy 
production devices that are currently available have people seen in use or 
are using? I'm not talking about PV panels, but fuel cell, cogeneration, high 
efficiency wind, etc. This is one area where I feel the weakest as far as 
having really ethical solutions to stop using fossil fuels. PV panels only go 
so far and dont' have the most optimum life cycle possible, by any means. I 
would love to hear what others have seen on this subject. 

It seems like this is such a key area to address since fossil fuel energy 
production creates so much of the ecosystem destruction. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>From toby@patternliteracy.com  Mon Dec 31 12:03:30 2012
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Paul, people have argued about what ethics are since humans could speak, so 
we know it's a tricky issue. There are people who feel the extermination of 
an ethnic group is ethical. And I understand why you think that adding a set 
of ethics to permaculture design is confusing and troublesome--people with a 
defective ethical sense can then, as you say, call "Ethics!" on anything they 
don't like or that they want to do, the way some say that pirating my book is 
redistributing surplus. But, they are focusing on "share the surplus" while 
ignoring "peoplecare," (me, Chelsea Green's staff, bookstores, and everyone 
who has paid for it). And that helps get to the importance of the ethics. 
That's why the 3 must be used as an interlocking structure. Each ethic helps 
you understand the others and together they make it hard to do harm. You can 
do harm by choosing one and ignoring the others, but rarely by doing them all.

>> Is a prison with a green roof permaculture? No.
> 
> Saywhat?  I mean, I've seen some lame excuses for a green roof, but
> .... if somebody has taken a PDC, puts it on a [prison]  and says
> "permaculture", then ... it is. 

No, it's not. It violates the ethics because the design serves oppressors. So 
it can't be what Mollison named "permaculture. It's something else, call it 
green design of prisons. Look, when the Supreme Court makes biased decisions 
like Citizen's United or Gore vs Bush, we don't say, yes, that's American 
democracy and the Constitution working well. We say, that's wrong and 
violates the spirit of the Constitution and no one who loves what America 
means can tolerate it. We don't just shrug and say, gee, I guess the 
Constitution means something different or doesn't matter. Holding to the 
spirit and intent of the founders (in our case, Bill) is what keeps the whole 
enterprise on track. Losing the ethics is like losing the BIll of Rights and 
claiming you have the same form of government. If I say that, I am lying. 

> I cannot fathom a "groovy design method" that features looting,
> bombing, torture and enslavement.
> 

Easy. Let's design a CIA black facility that uses blood for biofuel and 
captures the energy of thrashing victims to power their electroshock devices, 
and they feed the victims gruel from their keyhole beds, and all sorts of 
other cool, function-stacking designs. You could use all the permaculture 
principles to design that facility, and it could never be permaculture 
because it does harm. You must call it something else, because the founders 
and adherents of permaculture gave us a coherent program of ethics and 
principles that must remain linked or it's not permaculture, just as an 
oligarchy is not democracy, even when the dictator claims it is.

> I am trying to wrap my head around "hip design with guilds and
> sheetmulch harms people and the earth" --- like the sheetmulch goes on
> top of the people and the suffocate?
> 


See the CIA facility above. A guild with GMO corn isn't permaculture because 
it's doing harm on another level. If the only way you can conceive of 
sheetmulch doing harm is if it smothers people, you are not thinking in whole 
systems, and that is the essence of permaculture. Sheetmulching a GMO crop 
isn't permaculture. Pc uses the same premise as organic: if you use GMO 
seeds, you aren't doing organic ag, because you are doing harm on another 
level. Permaculture takes all the levels into account--that's why pirating my 
book isn't permaculture, since it does harm at a level away from the pirate. 

> "and concentrates wealth" so if John Stewart tries permaculture, that
> would be a bad thing?


Jon Stewart did not gain his wealth using permaculture; he got if from the 
corporate system. I don't mind that he is wealthy, but I do mind all the harm 
done by the system while generating his wealth (there's that other level 
again). If he chooses now to use his non-Pc derived wealth to create 
permaculture designs (a la Koreen's dream), that's reinvesting the surplus in 
earth and peoplecare. A different behavior grounded in ethics, unlike how he 
made his pile. Permaculture almost certainly could not create personal wealth 
on a Gates/Buffet scale; the surplus would have to be reinvested in earthcare 
and peoplecare too early in the process to allow it. 

 The ethics are not a bandaid that can be applied after unethical work is 
done. That's why saying "Ethics" does not, as you say, fix a bad design. The 
ethics have to be in it from the start. Unethical people will do shitty 
things and justify it, so the ethics--any ethics--won't help them. That's no 
reason to say we don't need the 3 ethics  in permaculture.

> I could really use an example.

If someone is doing harm on some level--like the real person running PDCs and 
making unauthorized charges to their students' credit cards--that design is 
harmfully flawed and they need to rethink it. And the ethics can help them 
see where they are doing harm, very quickly and simply. They can, sure, use 
sophistry to say "I am making them share their surplus with me" or "it's 
peoplecare because it cares for me--at their expense," but I think we can all 
agree that it truly violates the 3 ethics. 

Part of the problem here is that you see permaculture as a "visible" 
technique like gardening or water catchment, and I see permaculture as mostly 
invisible--it's a way of thinking that makes unethical behavior very 
difficult. 

The way I teach the ethics can illustrate. I have people list all the things 
we need to do to be sustainable. Altho at first people talk about recycling 
and reducing oil use, but very quickly the list is dominated by things like 
social justice, better education, respect for elders, reform of the banking 
system, and a whole slew of things that are about ethics and not about 
mulching. It shows that if we aren't acting out of an ethical sense, we will 
never get to sustainability. We'll just have solar-powered Monsanto plants 
with water catchment. That's not permaculture.

Time for other things.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com