permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I don't think that ethics always happens naturally, but I think it can happen 
gradiently. So Paul, your farmer with herbicides could stop using 1/2 of them 
or 3/4 and see that he can survive, and then look at how he could stop using 
any. That is a legitimate ethics path, in my mind. I think that permies who 
judge him for that have probably never worked with a farmer to get a design 
implemented and so are totally unreal about it. The solution would be to get 
them to confront a real design and hit the walls they're going to hit and 
come out the other end being more real about what it takes to get a true, 
regenerative design fully implemented from both a visible and invisible 
structure angle. 

In McDonaugh's case, I would say that is a slippery slope because there is so 
much time spent patting each other on the back for a design that is not whole 
systems (as you point out Scott) that they never get around to asking how 
they can do it better next time. A few corporations are actually asking the 
question of how they can go zero waste, zero fossil fuel energy, and real 
fair share and decent working conditions for their employees. It's hard,  
because the vast majority in that world don't agree with that game yet. So 
the more we can do to popularize the game of being ethical, the better. I try 
to make it at least a little bit fun to be ethical because it is. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in 
theOldSystem
 
Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy would
argue with a fence post!"  I think that the part you are missing is the
whole system thinking part which the ethics try to encompass.  They leave
out all of the things outside our parveau, like care for the sun!

You could also champion Masanobu Fukuoka, Hassan Fathy, J. Russell Smith,
along with your fixation on Holtzer and Stewart because as far as I know
they never explicitly laid out their ethical beliefs, but implicitly their
work is loaded with ethics with the possible exception of Stewart of whom I
have no knowledge.  But we aren't talking of them we are talking of design
and Permaculture.  All of them were concerned with earth care and used
various techniques to accomplish their concerns; many of those techniques
have been incorporated into Permaculture but that doesn't make the
techniques Permaculture.

One example of someone who makes a boat load of money doing green design is
William McDonaugh.  His famous work at the Ford truck Dearborn plant is a
model of using green technology to improve the bottom line - energy saving,
aesthetically pleasing, but to me a "one step solution to a two step ditch".
As a designer did he improve the working conditions of those 9 to 5 laborers
on the widget line?  I seriously doubt it.  Did the money saved get put into
a trust for the workers so they could allow their children to be trained in
skills that would provide them with a future without a mind numbing stint
tightening a 5/8 inch bolt on the left from shock absorber of a Ford truck.
So while Mr. Ford got all sorts or kudos along with Mr. McDonaugh in the end
this was a design that didn't address the ethical questions faced by Ford
motor company and our whole industrial model of using humans as plug in
components of a exploitative system.

If I am going to be a Permaculture designer I had better examine all the
components of the system I am designing - human, animal, environment, effect
on planetary health, and the best guide I have are the ethics, followed by
the principals.  

This is a discussion of ethics within the context of Permaculture design!

It is such a relief to have this discussion which is usually brushed aside
as being secondary to a discussion of the techniques, how to slaughter and
butcher a hog, for instance.  Talk about an ethical question!?



"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. 
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." 
~Arundhati Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul wheaton
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:05 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem

So we have the deep, rich philosophies of ethics where people will
spend decades studying it and still argue what is good.  And, as you
have pointed out, this sort of discussion has been going on thousands
of years.

And then we start to add in politics.

And then we toss in people with their own personal philosophies and
superglue the three ethics to these philosophies and parade around
telling people that because they don't subscribe to these
philosophies, they cannot call what they do "permaculture".

And, you are correct:  Bill says "permaculture is based on the three
ethics".  And then he explains what they mean.  I agree:  we have to
respect that.

And, at the same time, Bill has pointed at Sepp Holzer's stuff and
said "permaculture".  So I guess Sepp is following the three ethics
even though he never heard them before that point in time.  Then came
a parade of lessor people that told Sepp "you cannot call your stuff
permaculture because ...."

Toby, to fully and properly .... and respectfully, respond to all of
your points would take me more time than I have today.  And there
would be a lot of "but, but, but ..." and "yeah, but ..."

(I need to drive two hours to get to a podcast I'm recording today
about butchering hogs)

Here is my feeble attempt at a quick summary:

Suppose you say that all of the horticultural stuff, all of the eco
building and and all of the alternative energy stuff and all the
similar nuts and bolts were all added together, they would be a ball
that weighs 100 pounds.

Then you take all of the intentional community stuff and how do you
get 20 people to live under one roof without stabbing each other:
10,000 pounds.

Then the ethics:  infinite pounds.

I suppose this is a good time to say:  IMAAOO, YMMV, etc.

So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
eat all of the infinite pounds."

Awkward.

So, the farmer returns to herbicide-ville.

Damn.

At the same time, Sepp Holzer appears to have accomplished
"permaculture" and did not eat any of the infinite pounds.  This is
making the Sepp Holzer approach very attractive to my goals.  And the
infinite pounds approach seems very attractive to making sure people
do not try permaculture.

Need to respect Bill.  And Bill expresses his angst about "eco
fascists"!  Oh my.

And, as for millions of dollars:  For whatever authority I might have,
I wish to be very clear:  I think it is okay to make millions of
dollars using permaculture techniques.  I think it is okay for people
that already have millions of dollars to use permaculture techniques.
I like to think that bad guys will change their wicked ways and start
to use permaculture techniques.  I hope that everybody, everywhere,
becomes keen on permaculture techniques.

Even if wicked people doing wicked things add some permaculture to
what they do, I think that in the end the permaculture will un-wicked
them.

I think that by using the permaculture techniques, that folks end up
getting Bill's ethics.  The more they do, the more of Bill's ethics
they get.

-- 

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domination:  http://www.richsoil.com/email.jsp
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