permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I'm very interested in creating more viable pathways to get design that is 
demonstrably regenerative into broader use and implementation, whether that 
is creating pathways for people to get more trained and create careers, for 
projects to get off the ground financially, etc. I know that I would be doing 
more, and be more effective if I wasn't spending so much time gathering the 
energy just to get a project going (like grants for community gardens, 
getting free organic material found and delivered, etc). To the degree we can 
establish lines by which these things can be done more easily, we will expand 
more quickly.  It looks like the Financial Permaculture conference will 
address some of these issues, and I know that people are doing this locally 
and regionally too. Thanks for this conversation, hearing the diversity of 
points of view has been nice.
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
OldSystem
 
Wow! quite a broad and passionate topic.  thanks for all the thoughts on
this issue.

How can we actualize reinvest the excess in care of earth and people?  One
metaphor for this approach might be 'burning the candle at both ends',
reducing our energetic needs while increasing the energetic productivity of
the ecosystem in which we are embedded.  You can substitute money for
energy if you want an economic model.  When doing this, I think it is
important to recognize that all economics are embedded within (or emerge
from) society which is embedded within the earth's ecologies.  To me, this
nested hierarchy directly correlates to the three ethics and makes it more
obvious how they interrelate (which economics corresponding to the third
ethic).  We can then use flow diagrams and visual models (as well as
organizational and biophysical models) to map the relationships of the
ethics and how our actions move along the ethical framework.

since the thread started with financial permaculture, I want to put out a
plug for the course in Florida
http://www.financialpermaculture.com/
and associated blog
http://www.financialpermaculture.org/

This plug addresses my concern:
How do we get quality Permaculture (or multi-system earth regenerative
sites)  sites up and running over the most ground, helping the most people
and ecologies, as fast as possible?

In the US and I'm guessing much of the world, financing and 'making it pay
for itself and more' are very practical and important matters that can make
or break a design at many points along the implementation spectrum.

In my opinion much of this 'fast-tracking' of Ecologically Beneficial
Development (EBD) is based on access: to information, to a quality labor
pool, to skill development, to plant materials, to tools and technology, to
markets, to mentors, and to governments and policy makers.

I would love to see a discussion of techniques, strategies, and patterns
for facilitating this type of development as a pathway for Permaculture
careers.  Also, some assessment and monitoring tools for collecting
feedback and course correcting.  Specific case studies with results and
discussion around what worked, what didn't, and why (analysis and
corrective actions).  Tools for improving the effectiveness and continual
use of defining climate context, site assessment and observation, and
managing disturbance regimes.  A sprectrum of refined design processes,
perhaps some that lend themselves to scientific study.  Then a discussion
on how we can effectively share these tools and approaches through
Permaculture education systems

(Paul, I think your work facilitates these types of discussions and
improves access to this info)

I think this is an area where the open-systems model of Permaculture can
embrace the methods of Sepp Holzer, Holistic Management, and Resilience
Science as well as other topics and systems  to broaden our acceptance and
effectiveness. (i.e. Life cycle analysis and energy balance sheets, how
much energy is embodied in a natural process?)

One of my favorite aspects of Permaculture is that Bill directly states
that it is an applied system.  We take responsibility and act towards a
positive future and present.  I would like to see application of the PC
ethics to development of programs or systems such as those mentioned
above.

   - One example, I recently heard a discussion of how the Holistic
   Context/Goal makes the ethics operational in our daily lives and decision
   making, which I found truly profound as an improved approach to
   Permaculture as a life path.  I'm sure there are many more well thought out
   methods out there in practice waiting to be taught and learned, as well as
   many yet to be discovered.
   - Another example, Resilience science includes the concept of
   cross-scale interactions and thresholds of slow variables which cause
   regime shifts of socio-ecological systems.  These cross scale interactions
   are exactly what we can map using the nested hierarchy model of the three
   Pc ethics.  I am not saying I know what these interactions and variables
   are, I'm just trying to think of tools and methods to improve our
   application and teaching of them.

Many of these ideas are not mine rather are concepts that I have been
introduced to through classes and conversations about Permaculture and
Regenerative land stewardship. In particular, I would like to credit Owen
Hablutzel who has guided me to and through much of this information.
towards an ecological society,
Neil


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't think that "fair share" means that everybody has exactly the same
> amount of everything. That gets into central distribution communism and is
> a non sustainable and failed system. What I think fair share means is that
> people get a fair share of what they produce. It goes a lot deeper than
> that, but that's the soundbite version. You also need to look at the fact
> that $7000 in some places goes a lot further than it does in other places
> (like Los Angeles, for instance).
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
> the OldSystem
>
> I think an important thing to keep mind when contemplating "fair
> share":  the average world income is $7000 (annual).  So if anybody is
> earning more than that and not giving a bunch of it away to people
> with less than that - to the point that you keep less than $7000, it
> seems less than ethical to speak of "fair share".
>
> I think something similar can be said of property which would include
> possessions and real estate.
>
> I like the idea that John Stewart exercises permaculture and advocates
> permaculture.   Could John Stewart advocate polyculture?  Maybe talk
> about a bit of land that he has where 60 people live there and
> practice permaculture?  I think it is not only plausible - but it
> would be an awesome thing.
>
> --
>
> Sign up for my daily-ish email, or my devious plots for world
> domination:  http://www.richsoil.com/email.jsp
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com  Mon Dec 31 15:28:19 2012
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:28:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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        "better than PV panels?"
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I'm familiar with numerous passive heating and cooling and energy saving 
techniques such as what you mentioned, there is quite a long list of things 
that can be done to reduce usage of electric power and we are always looking 
for even more ways. I'm specifically interested in more information about 
energy producing devices, such as the windmills you mentioned. 

Anybody out there have some up to date info on cutting edge solar technology, 
wind, fuel cell, co-generation? Seems this is a key part of permaculture that 
gets neglected. The other side of that is fuel, for vehicles, another key 
area that tends to get set aside, for gardening. I do it too; I way prefer 
gardening to machinery and energy production. But I know that this is a weak 
spot for me in my designs, and I want to expand the options that I can offer 
people. Solar panels are not the be-all, end-all of electricity production. I 
know it depends on the site - we have discussed methane production at one 
ranch site but that won't work everywhere. Burning garbage has a limited 
future and is not fully sustainable, though better than mining coal. What 
about carbon based solar, nano solar, other cutting edge solar, solar/wind 
combos, etc? There were a few around in 2008, last time I seriously dived 
into this, that I can't find now. Did they go out of
 business? I know that happens to a lot of them. It's tough out there. Just 
reaching out on this subject to share info.
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethical energy use - what is your favorite 
"better than PV panels?"
 
On 12/31/2012 11:46 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> What is the most ethical, least toxic and polluting energy production
> method that you know of that is available for individual use? I
> understand that reducing energy needs is the top of the list and
> first action. But say that you have a laptop you need to power, or

Energy efficiency soultions using durable materials is of prime importance.
1) super insulated buildings
    spray-on foam and rigid foamboard insulation
    insulating masonry products, structural and non structural (Hebel,
    Aercon)
2) energy efficient roof design, deflect solar gain in warm months,
    allow solar gain in cold months
3) build with masonry (inexpensive, with long payback)
    concrete floors and masonry walls = valuable thermal mass to store
    solar gain in cold months, cool in warm months (significantly cooler,
    no need for A/C, only fans to circulate air)
4) orchards of fuel producing trees, cut or coppiced
5) rocket stoves or similar wood burning technology
6) Russian/Finnish/Scandinavian wood burning stoves with bake oven
    super efficient with huge thermal mass for heat cycling (thermal
    flywheel), high heat in combustion area (probably) eliminates
    creosote buildup in chimney, reduction on fire risk as portion of
    chimney that carries smoke to outside is venting low temperature
    gases; these stoves have been in use for centuries so they must have
    worked out the creosote buildup in the chimney issue successfully.
7) to repeat: super insulation, thermal mass and air circulation are
    vital to building energy efficiency

Use solar photovoltaic panels for household appliances, i.e. electronics 
charging and air circulating fans, high efficiency refigerators and 
freezers (if they exist).

> need to pump rainwater somewhere, or have a community center where
> you are having a conference on how to get permaculture design
> implemented in a city, etc. What state of the art energy production
> devices that are currently available have people seen in use or are
> using? I'm not talking about PV panels, but fuel cell, cogeneration,
> high efficiency wind, etc. This is one area where I feel the weakest
> as far as having really ethical solutions to stop using fossil fuels.
> PV panels only go so far and dont' have the most optimum life cycle
> possible, by any means. I would love to hear what others have seen on
> this subject.

Bergey Windmills. Small affordable units that can be erected by one or 
two people, 1000 watt, 2000 watt turbines.

> It seems like this is such a key area to address since fossil fuel
> energy production creates so much of the ecosystem destruction.

Mercury in fish comes from coal burning power plants. Tuna seems to 
hyperacumulate this toxic element, swordfish and other species as well. 
Herring is safe to eat. The Exxon Valdez disaster nearly completely 
obliterated the large herring industry in Prince William Sound. Herring 
from there could have fed many customers in the US.

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>From scott@permaculture.org  Mon Dec 31 16:22:11 2012
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
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Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy would
argue with a fence post!"  I think that the part you are missing is the
whole system thinking part which the ethics try to encompass.  They leave
out all of the things outside our parveau, like care for the sun!

You could also champion Masanobu Fukuoka, Hassan Fathy, J. Russell Smith,
along with your fixation on Holtzer and Stewart because as far as I know
they never explicitly laid out their ethical beliefs, but implicitly their
work is loaded with ethics with the possible exception of Stewart of whom I
have no knowledge.  But we aren't talking of them we are talking of design
and Permaculture.  All of them were concerned with earth care and used
various techniques to accomplish their concerns; many of those techniques
have been incorporated into Permaculture but that doesn't make the
techniques Permaculture.

One example of someone who makes a boat load of money doing green design is
William McDonaugh.  His famous work at the Ford truck Dearborn plant is a
model of using green technology to improve the bottom line - energy saving,
aesthetically pleasing, but to me a "one step solution to a two step ditch".
As a designer did he improve the working conditions of those 9 to 5 laborers
on the widget line?  I seriously doubt it.  Did the money saved get put into
a trust for the workers so they could allow their children to be trained in
skills that would provide them with a future without a mind numbing stint
tightening a 5/8 inch bolt on the left from shock absorber of a Ford truck.
So while Mr. Ford got all sorts or kudos along with Mr. McDonaugh in the end
this was a design that didn't address the ethical questions faced by Ford
motor company and our whole industrial model of using humans as plug in
components of a exploitative system.

If I am going to be a Permaculture designer I had better examine all the
components of the system I am designing - human, animal, environment, effect
on planetary health, and the best guide I have are the ethics, followed by
the principals.

This is a discussion of ethics within the context of Permaculture design!

It is such a relief to have this discussion which is usually brushed aside
as being secondary to a discussion of the techniques, how to slaughter and
butcher a hog, for instance.  Talk about an ethical question!?



"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
~Arundhati Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul wheaton
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:05 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem

So we have the deep, rich philosophies of ethics where people will
spend decades studying it and still argue what is good.  And, as you
have pointed out, this sort of discussion has been going on thousands
of years.

And then we start to add in politics.

And then we toss in people with their own personal philosophies and
superglue the three ethics to these philosophies and parade around
telling people that because they don't subscribe to these
philosophies, they cannot call what they do "permaculture".

And, you are correct:  Bill says "permaculture is based on the three
ethics".  And then he explains what they mean.  I agree:  we have to
respect that.

And, at the same time, Bill has pointed at Sepp Holzer's stuff and
said "permaculture".  So I guess Sepp is following the three ethics
even though he never heard them before that point in time.  Then came
a parade of lessor people that told Sepp "you cannot call your stuff
permaculture because ...."

Toby, to fully and properly .... and respectfully, respond to all of
your points would take me more time than I have today.  And there
would be a lot of "but, but, but ..." and "yeah, but ..."

(I need to drive two hours to get to a podcast I'm recording today
about butchering hogs)

Here is my feeble attempt at a quick summary:

Suppose you say that all of the horticultural stuff, all of the eco
building and and all of the alternative energy stuff and all the
similar nuts and bolts were all added together, they would be a ball
that weighs 100 pounds.

Then you take all of the intentional community stuff and how do you
get 20 people to live under one roof without stabbing each other:
10,000 pounds.

Then the ethics:  infinite pounds.

I suppose this is a good time to say:  IMAAOO, YMMV, etc.

So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
eat all of the infinite pounds."

Awkward.

So, the farmer returns to herbicide-ville.

Damn.

At the same time, Sepp Holzer appears to have accomplished
"permaculture" and did not eat any of the infinite pounds.  This is
making the Sepp Holzer approach very attractive to my goals.  And the
infinite pounds approach seems very attractive to making sure people
do not try permaculture.

Need to respect Bill.  And Bill expresses his angst about "eco
fascists"!  Oh my.

And, as for millions of dollars:  For whatever authority I might have,
I wish to be very clear:  I think it is okay to make millions of
dollars using permaculture techniques.  I think it is okay for people
that already have millions of dollars to use permaculture techniques.
I like to think that bad guys will change their wicked ways and start
to use permaculture techniques.  I hope that everybody, everywhere,
becomes keen on permaculture techniques.

Even if wicked people doing wicked things add some permaculture to
what they do, I think that in the end the permaculture will un-wicked
them.

I think that by using the permaculture techniques, that folks end up
getting Bill's ethics.  The more they do, the more of Bill's ethics
they get.

--

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