permaculture

[paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>]

Scott,

I must be part of the ignorance that you mention, because as I try to
read your words, I cannot make heads or tails of what you are talking
about.

> Surely you can see, Paul that you have created a perfect example of your
> proof!  You are talking about two totally different things design without
> ethics and with ethics and they are going to be very different.

I don't see.  I'm trying to see.  But this statement makes no sense to me.

> I recently encountered a Permaculture University in Latin America which had
> no one involved who had studied Permaculture but they were teaching
> Permaculture.  How does one ethically teach what they don't know? The short
> answer is they don't!

I think there are folks that say they are teaching permaculture, but
they are really shysters.  But they talk about the three ethics as
well as any other permaculture instruction.  My objection has to do
with stuff like how they point at common landscaping and call it a
guild.

Since I am struggling so much, Scott, perhaps you can give me an
example.  It doesn't even have to be real.  Just tell me a story of a
place where they say "and this is permaculture" but it is without the
ethics.  And then how you can utter the three ethics and then the path
is clear on how to make things right.

> Is it ethical to use professional video productions to show how beautifully
> Permaculture works in order to build ones reputation for consulting work and
> design jobs even if the video and voice over are in large part fantasy?

Still baffled.

So you are saying that there is a site somewhere, and somebody is
pointing to it and saying "we did permaculture there" but they
actually did nothing.  And then there is marketing material that say
"we did awesome! hire us to do cool stuff for you!"

I'm inferring this from what you wrote.   Assuming this is the case,
that does sound like a used car salesman thing.   And less than
ethical.  But I am missing the connection to the three ethics.

> Some would argue that if it gets big jobs out in the world then its fair
> game.  I argue that any projects built out of integrity are equivalent to
> the feet of clay story.

So there is a story about feet made out of clay?

> I wish that you had more examples of the "bad guys" being good and the "good
> guys" being bad.  It is a powerful use of rhetoric but in my experience has
> little base in reality.

??

> There are loads of examples of disastrous design failures and while most can
> be marked up to inexperience, or a case of the alligator mouth and the coon
> dog ass, it is still unethical to present yourself as knowledgeable when you
> aren't.  Adding ethics after the fact just doesn't make it a good design or
> "right as rain".

Still super baffled.

> As for the billions "laying around" being just fine as long as you didn't do
> any damage getting it, I guess I will take that as you being ironic - surely
> you're not serious!?

I am serious.  I think there are people that have accomplished large
good things.  And mysteriously ended up with a boatload of money.  And
I say:  good for them!  And I think there are people that have done
seriously icky things which resulted in a boatload of money - and I
turn my stinkeye in their direction.

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