permaculture

[paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>]

So we have the deep, rich philosophies of ethics where people will
spend decades studying it and still argue what is good.  And, as you
have pointed out, this sort of discussion has been going on thousands
of years.

And then we start to add in politics.

And then we toss in people with their own personal philosophies and
superglue the three ethics to these philosophies and parade around
telling people that because they don't subscribe to these
philosophies, they cannot call what they do "permaculture".

And, you are correct:  Bill says "permaculture is based on the three
ethics".  And then he explains what they mean.  I agree:  we have to
respect that.

And, at the same time, Bill has pointed at Sepp Holzer's stuff and
said "permaculture".  So I guess Sepp is following the three ethics
even though he never heard them before that point in time.  Then came
a parade of lessor people that told Sepp "you cannot call your stuff
permaculture because ...."

Toby, to fully and properly .... and respectfully, respond to all of
your points would take me more time than I have today.  And there
would be a lot of "but, but, but ..." and "yeah, but ..."

(I need to drive two hours to get to a podcast I'm recording today
about butchering hogs)

Here is my feeble attempt at a quick summary:

Suppose you say that all of the horticultural stuff, all of the eco
building and and all of the alternative energy stuff and all the
similar nuts and bolts were all added together, they would be a ball
that weighs 100 pounds.

Then you take all of the intentional community stuff and how do you
get 20 people to live under one roof without stabbing each other:
10,000 pounds.

Then the ethics:  infinite pounds.

I suppose this is a good time to say:  IMAAOO, YMMV, etc.

So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
eat all of the infinite pounds."

Awkward.

So, the farmer returns to herbicide-ville.

Damn.

At the same time, Sepp Holzer appears to have accomplished
"permaculture" and did not eat any of the infinite pounds.  This is
making the Sepp Holzer approach very attractive to my goals.  And the
infinite pounds approach seems very attractive to making sure people
do not try permaculture.

Need to respect Bill.  And Bill expresses his angst about "eco
fascists"!  Oh my.

And, as for millions of dollars:  For whatever authority I might have,
I wish to be very clear:  I think it is okay to make millions of
dollars using permaculture techniques.  I think it is okay for people
that already have millions of dollars to use permaculture techniques.
I like to think that bad guys will change their wicked ways and start
to use permaculture techniques.  I hope that everybody, everywhere,
becomes keen on permaculture techniques.

Even if wicked people doing wicked things add some permaculture to
what they do, I think that in the end the permaculture will un-wicked
them.

I think that by using the permaculture techniques, that folks end up
getting Bill's ethics.  The more they do, the more of Bill's ethics
they get.

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