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  • From: <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] OT Re: the gardener's shadow falls both ways
  • Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:51:19 -0800

Lee,

Are we mature intelligent adults on this list, or have I missed something?

Clearly we are on an OT type of thread here...
And, we are in a rather sensitive discussion, at least some of us have been trying to steer the discussion in the direction of, what is appropriate for OT type of discussion on this list.
You speak of not trying to alienate people on your PDC's.
Well, take a deep breath, and try to relate to the people that are on this list for starters.
I can think of three whose posts you seem to be blocking the import of.

You have missed my 'drift' completely.
This title has a description of the aspect of 'being' which we are, in general, at a loss to know.
Time is there, to be 'used'.
The more fools we.
The word 'magical' should not offend you, as it relates only to the 'quality' of being.
If you are working with land and plants and are allergic to the word 'magical', then I think it's time for you to take a break from playing censor, and struggle a bit more on inner levels. Seriously. To work with land and with plants is to work with the mystery of life at some of its deepest levels. Notice I'm not calling it any names or framing it in any context. That notion of spirituality is somewhat dated in my books. We all have spiritual lives. Living in the ego... That is another thing.
As to science, those that travel deeply into fields of science are witness to the deepening of the mystery, not the stripping of life from it.

So, before you imply censorship, think again. Some of your ideas are getting rather 'crusty' and to give yourself license to censor, and limit, will only make them more so. Instead, I challenge you to live and let live... Allow for some diversity, please, or expect a dropping off from engagement on this list.
I'm a bit baffled by the sense of some people that they are 'keepers of this list'.
Thought we were doing awfully well with each person contributing from their own point of view and balancing out each other's idea with some sense of humility.
I was not aware that anyone was playing 'teacher' on this list, but thought that everyone was here for their own purposes. If that purpose is merely to gather students, I would not say that would be a list that I would feel as comfortable in as one where everyone felt that had something to gain from some of the posts, and knew which ones they could ignore.

It would be far more productive, in my mind, if you were to respond to my suggestion that this list is not 'in locus PDC' and that it might serve other more individual experience oriented purposes as well. Or, whether, there are list nannies that are worrying about the impact of any particular post on the list subscribers.

That would be more to the point, and more in the interests of inclusiveness.
If not, I would be happy to turn my intelligence to other matters...

Cheers!
Frances











--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee Flier" <leeflier@comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 3:09 PM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the gardener's shadow falls both ways

fdnokes@hotmail.com wrote:
May I recommend a title, then?
The Magical Approach
Seth speaks about the art of Creative Living

With all due respect, and I really hate to keep harping on this but...
this is exactly IMO the kind of title we should steer clear of. Not
that I'm telling you personally not to read it, if you enjoyed it, but
keep in mind there are people on this list who are using the list to
learn about permaculture, and here you are recommending a book that
basically requires people to believe in this channeled being named
Seth. If people who read this list believe that this book is somehow
representative of permaculture and its practitioners, that's going to be
a problem for anybody who would, for whatever reason (either they are
atheist, or they subscribe to a religion whose tenets do not include
channeled beings, or they just plain don't believe in such things), be
turned off to the whole idea of permaculture if they feel they have to
accept these things.

I feel there are plenty of other ways to communicate the ideas you
mention, the "reminder to slow down and notice," which don't require any
suspension of disbelief and/or contradiction with anyone else's beliefs.

I was composing this note, and paused for other things...
Didn't even realize I had left it 'hanging'.
Meanwhile, another post came in from Pat talking about 'nudgings'.
A wonderful process that reminds me of that state of 'not doing' that
Fukuoka communicates so beautifully.

Just so you know... there seems to be some idea that Mollison himself
and anybody who subscribes to "Mollinsonian permaculture" is some kind
of pure hard nosed utilitarian. I might offer a few direct quotes
(possibly slightly paraphrased from memory) from Mollison which he
taught in his classes and which I feel is the greatest cultural hurdle
we have to overcome (and that means just about everybody - "earth
centered spiritualists" and "hardcore utilitarians" alike.

- "Where there is hard work, there is usually pollution."

- "What we have is a world of things that either have beauty without
being functional, or have function without beauty. Nature doesn't
work that way - natural systems are both functional and beautiful."

- "One should be able to spend most of one's time in the garden sitting
around, and just BEING in the garden. Or go away for a month's holiday
and come back to find the garden thriving."

I'm sure I'm leaving out a few key points, but you get the idea. By no
means is a pragmatic approach to these things inherently geared toward
"busywork" and being "product oriented." And that, IMO, is where we
went wrong in our thinking. I feel that once you incorporate
permacultural thinking to the point where it becomes second nature, you
can certainly be taken over or "nudged" by your instincts, divine
guidance, your right brain, however it is you choose to think of it.
But people do tend to think of that "nudging" as different things in
different ways, and we should leave plenty of room for that.


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