Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[<pbunch@cox.net>]

I tend to agree that small towns are an important resource. I wonder how they 
can be brought on board when the larger society is not interested in solving 
the problems or is in denial. This seems like a significant challenge 
especially with the mass media creating the sense that everything will 
continue as it always has and that there is no need for substantial change.

 
---- Emery Mitchamore <emitch@att.net> wrote: 
> I believe existing small towns, with basic, functioning, social and 
> physical infrastructure have the best chance of achieving what you 
> describe.  What they need, in the interim, is an influx of productive 
> people.
> 
> E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
> www.hillcountrynatives.net
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 22, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <pbunch@cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > The whole argument on using less meat and dairy is based on the 
> > assumption that we can do things to reduce human-induced impacts and our 
> > personal and societal footprints.  These arguments are put forth by 
> > people who have not given up hope and who believe that we need to work 
> > together to develop workable, just solutions. 
> > 
> > As Paul said their are ways to raise meat and milk that may be within a 
> > reasonable individual footprint, at least for rural residents with enough 
> > land.
> > 
> > Now, climbing up on my soap box...
> > 
> > Personally I don't think that a survivalist, rugged independence model 
> > has legs. Humans are quite good at getting together in a clear-cut crisis 
> > and doing whatever is necessary to get what they want or need. It may be 
> > that if one was located far enough away from urban or even town centers 
> > the independent model might work in a very sudden crash. It is very 
> > unlikely however that all technological support will come to a grinding 
> > halt overnight. Decline and decay is a lot like death from cancer, often 
> > slow and ugly.  A more likely situation is the formation of gangs or 
> > militias that use scarcity to profit. Some people have adequate 
> > leadership qualities to form and maintain need based organizations. Here 
> > in Colombia we have a lot of experience with how this kind of 
> > organization operates in rural settings. They are very effective and 
> > ruthless. They control territories and extort what they want. Resistance 
> > is generally met by making examples. If you doubt the human capacity for 
> > such organization and methodology in your own area just look to the inner 
> > cities. 
> > 
> > IMHO we will do ourselves a favor by finding social solutions which 
> > maintain the rule of law. This will require a major effort and some of 
> > the choices to be made are not attractive to everyone. If there is to be 
> > any hope here, impact reduction is required. The cities are not going 
> > away and they are not going to allow the rural areas to live in relative 
> > well-being while they suffer. The time to start finding workable 
> > solutions without throwing up ones hands and throwing in the towel is 
> > now. These solutions include but are not limited to: major impact 
> > reduction, development of a steady state economy, urban food growing 
> > (probably insufficient by itself), redistribution of some percentage of 
> > the urban population to the countryside, protection of soils and 
> > established ag lands, optimization of long-term agricultural production 
> > levels, equitable distribution of the food which is grown, voluntary 
> > reduction of material consumption, development of non-material means of 
> > flourishing.
> > 
> > I have no idea of the actual chances of success. Some here will say they 
> > are nil. However, sticking ones head in the sand and surviving the 
> > collapse of ones society appears to me to be a very low probability 
> > event. Some small percentage may survive but the kind of life they 
> > inherit is most likely to be unacceptable. It may well be that they will 
> > deserve what they get for abandoning the rest of their fellow human 
> > beings without a reasonable effort to solve the problems we all are 
> > responsible for having created.
> > 
> > The skills being developed by people on this list are going to be crucial 
> > to a viable future particularly n the "developed" countries. In the under 
> > developed countries there is at least a reasonable number of people who 
> > remember how to live outside the cities and who can teach others how to 
> > do so.  This list is a loose community and can make significant 
> > contributions. Strong communities are needed and IMHO will be the saving 
> > grace if one exists.
> > 
> > Phil Bunch
> > Medellin/Piedras Blancas, Colombia
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---- Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Thanks, John. Let's note first that what you (and others) do in Ireland 
> >> with your animals is nothing like the CAFOs in the U.S. You don't crowd 
> >> enormous herds in corporate feedlots and feed corporate corn to fatten 
> >> for slaughter for our consumption three meals a day seven days a week, 
> >> and you grow them for your own needs and do your own processing - no 
> >> corporate middlemen screwing it all up and selling us E.coli. And if we 
> >> did the same as you then we could just use meat European style, mainly 
> >> bits here and there to flavor dishes, needing only the meat and dairy 
> >> produced locally and saving millions of acres now in corn to grow food 
> >> for people.
> >> 
> >>> Unfortunately it is clear to us that if people wanted to start doing the
> >>> same thing that it would be very difficult to do in troubled times. We
> >>> reccon it takes about two years run in time to do everything needed and 
> >>> at
> >>> the moment it may already be too late to start and solve all problems
> >>> before
> >>> TSHTF.
> >> 
> >> I'm afraid so. If people find it's too hard to start growing now, it'll 
> >> be impossible when things get worse. It takes some investment of time 
> >> and money and both will be in short supply if this "recession" deepens, 
> >> and the "recovery" cheerleaders keep lying to prop up the stock market 
> >> and keep us in debt with jobless claims still rising and wages dropping 
> >> and safety net programs being shredded by states in red ink.
> >> 
> >> Another point: rennet is a good lesson. Learning to grow and preserve 
> >> and process takes years. I know. People didn't pay attention when their 
> >> grandparents told tales of the Depression and how they got by. The 
> >> so-called "greatest generation" blew it big time and lost the skills and 
> >> knowledge to live simply and frugally. The younger generation must start 
> >> from scratch now. They will get blisters and backache. Get used to it.
> >> 
> >> But there I differ on TSHTF. It's my hope that the gradualists (like 
> >> Dimitri Orlov) are right, that we won't just wake up some fine morning 
> >> to find our world is out of fuel and the store shelves are empty. That 
> >> there will be time for many to relearn and redisccover what's been lost. 
> >> Otherwise I'm wasting my time maintaining this list. Yet it's totally 
> >> encouraging to see so many different people taking part, posting things 
> >> of concern, staying on topic and discussing intelligently (and yes, even 
> >> disagreeing with yours truly). That's what it takes to learn. We can't 
> >> figure it all out by ourselves, can we.
> >> 
> >> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> >> ------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Many types of jobs will cease to exist: public relations executive, 
> >> marketing directors, et cetera. I think work will be very hands-on, and 
> >> a lot of it will revolve around food production.
> >>   -- James Howard Kunstler, 2003
> >> 
> >> How do you move from a system which has built in destruction of the 
> >> planet and built in devastation for local communities and local 
> >> economies and transition back to systems which formerly worked and new 
> >> environmentally sustainable systems? That’s the project of our time.
> >> - Jerry Mander
> >> 
> >> When I speak of these two phases of systemic collapse, what I mean is 
> >> that we concern ourselves over whether the waitress will bring the food 
> >> promptly enough, but we omit to ask if there is any food to be brought.
> >> -- Jan Lundberg
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >> 
> >> On 6/21/2010 at 11:12 PM John D'hondt wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Tommy,
> >>> I really don't think the difference in carbon foot print between
> >>> vegetables,
> >>> grains, soy bean or dairy and meat is of the slightest importance. When
> >>> TSHTF large scale agriculture is going to stop, shops will go empty and
> >>> transport will slow down to a snail's crawl.
> >>> This means that most people will start to starve at that stage and that
> >>> anything that is edible will be eaten. Maybe there are a few of us 
> >>> capable
> >>> of producing food for more people than ourselves but none of us can feed
> >>> even the nearest small town for very long.
> >>> 
> >>> We have a few things happening at the moment that could very well, each 
> >>> on
> >>> their own, mean the end of our species and every single day of the week 
> >>> I
> >>> get several mails to that effect. Taken all together I think mankind has
> >>> no
> >>> chance at all. Maybe a good thing too because we are not a good species 
> >>> to
> >>> have around in fragile space ship Earth.
> >>> 
> >>> The hopeful detail though is that when our numbers go very low we might
> >>> just
> >>> pull of to come out as a better, improved species.
> >>> 
> >>> And why should "we" not have access to meat and dairy. Without going 
> >>> into
> >>> details, I fully expect my family will have plentiful access to just 
> >>> that.
> >>> We milk two cows and five goats by hand, produce our own rennet. Make 3
> >>> two
> >>> kilo hard rounds of cheese per week, butter, kefir and soft cheese as 
> >>> much
> >>> as we want. What is most important is the knowledge of how to do things
> >>> and
> >>> we do have that.
> >>> Unfortunately it is clear to us that if people wanted to start doing the
> >>> same thing that it would be very difficult to do in troubled times. We
> >>> reccon it takes about two years run in time to do everything needed and 
> >>> at
> >>> the moment it may already be too late to start and solve all problems
> >>> before
> >>> TSHTF. It took us 5-6 years to solve the rennet problem for instance. 
> >>> The
> >>> amount of nonsense written about this subject is enormous and it simply
> >>> does
> >>> not work.
> >>> john
> >>> 
> >>>> Does this study remain valid when/if Peak Oil, climate change, and
> >>>> economic collapse are factored into its assumptions?  Meat and dairy
> >>>> have a lot more of a carbon footprint than vegetables, especially from
> >>>> established beds, unless we're talking about homestead 
> >>>> chickens/rabbits,
> >>>> etc.
> >>>> 
> >>>> What the BP disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is teaching us, too late, is
> >>>> that there is not a way to safely produce deepwater oil with current
> >>>> technology.  BP spends $1 billion/month cleaning up and trying to plug
> >>>> the well they let get away from them.  Ocean-going ships are no longer
> >>>> able to access Mississippi River grain export facilities.  After this
> >>>> thing ripples through Gulf state economies, the tens of millions of
> >>>> refugees will make the Katrina diaspora look insignificant.  Richard
> >>>> Heinberg today on Energy Bulletin.net says BP's mess may take down the
> >>>> US (and harm the British) economy
> >>>> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53168.  Over time, Richard has been
> >>>> near 100% correct in his predictions.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The only reason BP's drilling in mile (or more) deep water is because
> >>>> the easily gotten commercially viable shallow water and land deposits
> >>>> are gone, meaning cheap oil is gone, which is what Peak Oil always
> >>>> meant.  When oil goes over $80/barrel, the US economy staggers, and
> >>>> Michael Ruppert says we'll have $200/barrel by the end of this summer
> >>>> because BP is deepwater drilling's Three Mile Island.  Ruppert says 
> >>>> he's
> >>>> right 80% of the time.
> >>>> 
> >>>> What this seems to indicate, to me, is that we will be eating whatever
> >>>> the immediate twenty miles or so produces, and a significant portion of
> >>>> that will be what we can produce ourselves.  Keeping our diets healthy
> >>>> may become a challenge.
> >>>> 
> >>>> It seems certain, however, that we will not have the access to meat and
> >>>> dairy that this study assumes.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Smiles.
> >>>> Tommy
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 6/20/10 1:47 PM, pbunch@cox.net wrote:
> >>>>> This Cornell study indicates that largely vegetarian diets with small
> >>>>> amounts of meat and dairy products may provide more effective land use
> >>>>> than vegan diets.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/332pxro
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> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
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