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  • From: paul@oneseedling.com
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] More on Low Dairy and Meat Diets
  • Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:10:54 -0500


My opinion of the us is not real high, however, having lived in several foreign cointries i can say that here is way better than there.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2010, at 4:29 PM, "Andeanfx" <andeanfx@midrivers.com> wrote:

I think it is well beyond the point of demand. Ten years a go I presented
the local courthouse personnel with a cite for one of their own "laws" and
was told "I don't care what you have, we have the guns and the keys to the
jail cells". I still cannot believe I did not pack up and leave the country
on the spot. Oh, That's right, I was in a very secure place with room and
board for demanding First Amendment rights, couldn't leave.


"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at
all."

----- Original Message -----
From: <pbunch@cox.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] More on Low Dairy and Meat Diets


I like the quote and think it points the way toward what we need to do. I
think we need to demand the implementation of national steady state
economies. We need to educate and motivate a majority of voters. This is
complex and will require a lot of commitment and work.

"Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never will. Show
me
the exact amount of wrong and injustices that are visited upon a person
and I
will show you the exact amount of words endured by these people." --
Frederick
Douglass



---- Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

If you've seen my previous comments on transition then I'll try not to
plow the same ground. You mention building community between people and
their governments. This angle on transition seems naive. The powers that
be, the money and ownership by the elite 1% in the US, is not about to
turn it all over to the unwashed masses (including yours truly). If we
learn anything from history it's that the hierarchy of great wealth
fights any change that limits or undoes their control of property and
resources and people. Here's the man who said it best, before the
disastrous Civil War:
"Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never will.
Show me the exact amount of wrong and injustices that are visited upon a
person and I will show you the exact amount of words endured by these
people." -- Frederick Douglass

Consider the land itself, the soil and water. Who controls how land and
water are used, what they produce, and who profits? Almost all land and
more and more of the water is corporate owned for profit (except federal
land mosly in the West, which is also largely used for profit). And
transportation - who builds the rails, roads, airports, freeways?
Government. Who makes the cars, trucks, trains and planes? Corporations.
Who profits? Corporations. Who owns the medicine, the fossil fuel
industry, the solar and wind power manufacturers? All corporate. Who
profits? Corporations. Who owns and controls the entire manufacturing
base and banking and credit business? Corporations. Who profits?
Corporations. Who controls the most powerful military machine the world
has ever seen with hundreds of bases all over the globe? Our government.
Who pays for it? We do. Who profits? Corporations.

Now the question becomes: which part of this system is going to give up
their legal obligation to stockholders and go out of business so
sustainability can take over? Which corporations will give up control of
their lands, water, tollways, trains, planes, cars, trucks, fossil fuels,
medicines, power plants and the entire manufacturing base of this
country? So what does that leave the rest of us? Very little that we can
control for our own use to live sustainably as we see fit

Transition towns and ecovillages mean well. But they have yet to go 1% of
the distance. They still have to operate within the financial system that
covers the country. They mostly drive cars to get to and from work
(usually for corporations) and finance ecovillage property through banks.
They must pay the corporate power grid or pay financial corporations to
get solar or wind power. And they grow part of their own food. When it's
fair weather. Changing light bulbs is a bad joke. So is a $200 solar
setup that'll light one 45 watt bulb - when the sun is shining. Oops, not
at night! No, it's not that easy. We have to let Nature take its course
and try to adapt as we can.

Most of our garden beds are planted now, mostly mulched, with soaker
hoses from China, sold by OneStop corporation. Today we have to get the
old van towed to the shop over a tension pulley. It would take half a day
to get there on a horse, but we don't seem to have a horse.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 6/23/2010 at 12:00 PM Tommy Tolson wrote:

Joseph Tainter's /The Collapse of Complex Societies/ is excellent source
material backing your statement.
Transition (www.transitiontowns.org) intends to build community between
people and their governments in order for people to recover their power
to run their lives as they see fit so they can build the Post Petroleum
social infrastructure that corporate rule (especially the fossil fuel
industry) has effectively prevented for the last 40 years. There's also
a lot of good information at www.transitionculture.org, Rob Hopkins'
blog site. Transition is my work, when my health allows it, growing a
just, sustainable world.
Thanks for /Small is Beautiful/. I'm reading it again, too. Great
book!

Smiles.
Tommy

On 6/23/10 11:26 AM, paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
Thoughout history we have suffered collapse of civlization. Isolated
groups of families have survived by banding together for common
defence and food related activities. Thus it will be in the future.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:32 AM,<pbunch@cox.net> wrote:



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