Homestead mailing list

[Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>]

A good contingency plan....
 
 
 
I suspect gold is a good vehicle for storing excess saved wealth during very 
specific periods of time (collapse of currency,hyperinflation) and as a way 
to pass on that wealth to heirs without the taxman stealing any.  As well as 
a currency two individuals can use for trade if there is an agreement on 
value.
 
For immediate survival needs, tools, ammo etc a very good investment.
 
I made another excellent "investment" this week that I was able to get at 
wholesale prices, and I'm thinking of getting more to use as barter.  Hunting 
knives of various lengths, bone saws, filet knives, skinning knives, general 
all purpose knives, field binoculars (with surprisingly good optics).  And of 
course all made in China.....  I figured since I don't know how to make 
steel.... it's a good investment.
 
Question.... on the hunting knives.... some of them have some wicked jagged 
edges on the upper side.  What is the jagged edge really for?
 
 
 
Merry Xmas, all

--- On Wed, 12/24/08, rayzentz AT aim.com <rayzentz AT aim.com> wrote:

From: rayzentz AT aim.com <rayzentz AT aim.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 9:56 AM

You know, until recently, I was planning on buying more gold, but figured it 
was
more prudent to stock up on items that may not be available..., food, 
firearms,
ammo, tools, etc. Those may be of more value than gold, and much more readily
"spendable"
Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com; homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:41 am
Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold



Leslie my comments were specific to Dr. Fekete 's meaning, using his own
words : 


" In the end, no one was willing to exchange gold and silver coins for the

debased coinage of the empire."

Acoording to him, and others like him, I might add, the gold never lost its 
value; the gold was never debased.  On the contrary, because if its innate, 
intrinsic value, it was hoarded and hidden away, for there was nothing left, 
proclaimed by fiat that had retained enough value that the owners of gold 
were 
"willing to exchange" their gold.

Now, Fekete is an uber goldbug.  I find good points in alot of his writing; 
but

other groups would call him hysterical or even a 'nut'.
There are other finacial sites similar to financial sense--the site that you 
quote.  Some or bigger, some smaller, but they all have well written 
commentary

by many well educated ,sometimes prominent, men.  Each commengtary makes
perfect 
sense until you read the next commentary.  There are many historical 
analogies,

and different ways of interpreting those historical events.  Even today, our 
best economists still disagree on what finally ended the great depression, 
and 
that wasn't very long ago.

There is also the factor of price manipulation of currencies (including gold 
if

you consider gold to be money) by governments and financials cartels all
through 
history.  Much tales of manipulation are real and much is the fabric of told
& 
yet untold conspiracy theories.

Dr. Fekete is just another very smart voice.  try 321Gold.com,or  
jsmineset.com

, for a bigger variety of commentary.  JSMineset is the most prominent (along 
with the commentry section of Peter Schiff's Europac.net.).  You seem to be

drifting toward to very worst case senario set; and you could very well be 
right.  I'm still reading and thinking, having not yet decided that anyone
is 
even close to perfecting predicting the future.  And, I always 'hope'
for a 
better case scenario..:-) .............

--------------------------------------------------------------------------  







--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 10:20 AM
> No I don't think I misinterpreted.
> ?
> In other things I have read, governments, serfdoms,
> kingdoms,?etc. practiced "clipping" coins (i.e
> they cheated on the value of the coin).? The modern day
> equivalent is clearly seen in US dimes and quarters, which
> are no longer solid silver.? They have been clipped
> (filled) with other metals.? The US government is cheating
> on the value of coins & paper currency.? The exchange
> of X units of labor for a 100% silver dime, is now exchanged
> for 1/100th% of the same amount of silver via
> "clipping"/cheating.? (Not an exact number, but
> illustrative for argument.)? This has been a long drawn out
> process of clipping both metal & paper currency in the
> US?spanning some 80-90 years.
> ?
> The hoarding events that has lead to current time
> backwardation probably?has occured?in two stages.? The
> first being those who hid their gold from the government
> confiscating it some 80-90 ago when the US made it illegal -
> and passed it on to their children.? And the second wave
> starting when the US made it legal to own gold again, and
> then took us off the gold standard in the 1970s triggering
> fear of monetary collapse.? I would venture there are a lot
> of gold bugs who never sold any of the gold they purchased
> in the 70s as back then they understood the collapse of the
> fiat currency was underway regardless of how many?years it
> would take - even if they bought at the top.? I know I was
> in my early twenties, and I understood that back then - that
> gold is to be hoarded and exchanged as the currency finishes
> collapsing.
> ?
> Fekete explains hoarding was?a long drawn out event in the
> W. Roman Empire, and in modern times we have a similar event
> going on.
> ?
> Backwardation in part is telling us that fewer and fewer
> people?hoardin
g gold/silver today are willing to exchange
> it for paper dollars or for those "clipped" silver
> dimes and quarters that are no longer 100% silver.
> ?
> Currently the troops are still accepting below minimum
> wage(?) paid in the form of paper fiat currency.???If the
> government doesn't increase their wages in sync with
> hyperinflation - how long will they stay?? How can they
> feed their families?? 
> ?
> There is no doubt in my mind that the US Gov't is, and
> has been for a long time, bankrupt.? So far the US is still
> paying debts by creating more and more currency out of thin
> air.? How long people will continue to accept that form of
> payment is another story.? I do believe we're headed
> for a monetary hyperinflation phase, where the currency
> collapses in the end.? (And not just the US, I believe a
> lot of G-20s are going the same way.)
> ?
> What happens after that??
> ?
> >From what I've read, hyperinflations do not end
> until governments stop issuing the?collapsing currency,
> issue a new currency, and promise not to debase it by
> increasing the number of units circulating.? It won't
> work until there is CONfidence that the government will stop
> the clipping.??I wish I knew if that typically happens
> overnight, or if the next new currency?typically gets
> clipped again after a short period of CONfidence.?The gold
> bugs may?hoard their gold, even if it means passing to the
> next generation... meaning there is no centralized price
> mechanism.
> ?
> How DO people value gold outside of a government issued
> money system - which in part is what I interpreted James to
> be talking about.? You can't eat it, but you can use it
> to trade without others willing to accept it, but what is
> the pricing mechanism?? 
> ?
> If the dollar collapses and people are still willing to
> trade gold for say Euro, you have a pricing mechanism.? If
> the Euro collapses, and the Canadian or NZDollar still
> sports a gold price, you can still exchange it, and so on.?
> After that, how do people come to a cons
ensus of value - of
> fair value?? If no one is willing to trade for ANY fiat
> currency, then what?
> ?
> The way I read Fekete's article is that during the dark
> ages there was a period where you could not count on
> gold/silver being used as a medium of exchange.? It may
> have been because there was no way to determine value (i.e.
> how many grams would be worth a dozen eggs, etc.)? He
> states that gold/silver went into hiding never to re-emerge
> during the lifetime of the original holders.? I assume from
> that that it was passed on from generation to generation
> until such time as there was a reason to swap out into a
> different kind of currency or other medium of exchange (as
> there have been many besides gold/silver).? Of course back
> then, computers and modern transportation did not exist to
> facilitate world wide trading.
> ?
> In a Dark Ages II type scenario, you can't eat gold,
> can't wear it, can't heat with it.? However, you
> can pass it to the next generation clandestinely and avoid
> paying taxes to theiving governments.? LOL.? 
> ?
> I think Fekete is saying that gold/silver retains value as
> a more wide-spread medium of exchange (whether in physical
> metal or metal backed currency) only when their is
> wide-spread confidence in the governing body.? 
> ?
> Under a chaotic government(s) situation - and limited
> person to person gold/silver exchange - a large
> landowner/farmer MIGHT be willing to exchange his excess
> food production for some gold IF his goal is to acquire gold
> for his heirs or for a time when the governing body can be
> trusted again.? However, a small farmer barely able to
> produce above his own needs is not going to swap his one
> extra chicken for gold if he needs a horse shoe from the
> blacksmith for his plow, and the blacksmith doesn't want
> gold but needs to eat.
> ?
> I don't know if the US or the world will decsend into
> another Dark Ages; I don't discount the possibility -
> but I don't have any way of determining how far out
> along the fat tail of a
 bell curve?the possibility?of a
> Dark Ages II needs to go.? Of if we will just return to a
> more agrarian society, or what.
> ?
> One point that Fekete makes is that he foresees a time when
> there would be no sellers of gold/silver.? I would have to
> think about that for a long time.? But my first thought, is
> maybe initially but, I think in time?some would be willing
> to sell as a last resort (or not knowing the value) to those
> who have excess production, who see gold/silver as a future
> generation(s) way of preserving wealth.? 
> ?
> On your point, "Anyone who now believes things will
> become 'that bad', should be out with ropes, rifles,
> pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim those in
> power who would allow such a thing to occur."
> ?
> True, but in truth WHO allowed it to occur?? WE DID. WE
> who did not rise up in anger at the debasement of the
> currency and put a stop to it.? WE who understood the
> consequences and failed to teach values of exchange and of
> production and self-preservation through our own efforts.?
> WE DO deserve to get a new Dark Ages, not because we are
> sitting and waiting for it, but because we failed to
> recognize the cause of it and failed to prevent it, even
> with all of our accumulated knowledge of thousands of years.
> ?
> Although ropes and guillotines won't be needed -
> starvation and disease will take care of it.
> ?
> Yes, it echoes of Ayn Rand, but to me it is the much more
> accurate to blame "we" than those in power.
> ?
> ?
> PS CAPS are not "yelling",,,, but meant to
> emphasis on paper the words I would emphasis in person.
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/23/08, bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
> 
> Leslie, I believe you mis-read Dr. Fekets's intenet
> where he draws upon
> historical anaylis.  He wrote:
> 
> "............... causation goes in the opposite
> direction. The

> disappearance of gold and silver coins as a means of
> exchange was a
> long-drawn-out, cumulative event. In the end, no one was
> willing to exchange
> gold and silver coins for the debased coinage of the
> empire. At that point the
> empire was bankrupt; it could no longer pay the troops that
> defended its
> boundaries against the barbarians threatening with
> invasion.'......."
> 
> That is to say, that the gold and silver still retained
> their value , in his
> opinion; but ttheir was nothing left in the fiat system
> worth the trade value of
> the gold and silver.  And, if we are sitting and waiting
> for a return of the
> "dark ages", we desrve whatever we get, anyway. 
> Anyone who now
> believes things will become 'that bad', should be
> out with ropes,
> rifles, pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim
> those in power who
> would allow such a thing to occur.  Most of us think we are
> witnessing a
> calamity, but not anything close to a repeat of the
> 'Dark Ages'.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > ?
> > Fekete writes an update on the outlook for the value
> of
> > gold.? This one is quite interesting as he talks
> about what
> > happened to gold/silver during/after the collapse of
> the
> > Western Roman Empire and the parallels to today.?
> History
> > supports James'?points a couple weeks ago?that
> > gold/silvere will have zero value - the pricing
> mechanism
> > will be gone.
> > ?
> > Fekete warns that gold in backwardation in Dec 2008,
> is
> > warning, is a premonition of what is coming down the
> road.?
> > He believes there will be repeated instances of
> > backwardation, each more severe than the preceeding,
> as
> > gold/silver go into hiding.? Hyperinflation and
> ultimately
> > the collapse of the monetary system - a point where
> > gold/silver will not have a value either, because
> those
> > hoarding will not be willing to part with it, until
> such
> > t
ime as confidence in a fiat currency returns.? 
> > ?
> > After the collapse of the Roman Empire we went into
> the
> > Dark Ages, where payment in gold/silver could not be
> taken
> > for granted - gold/silver went into hiding never to
> > re-emerge during the lifetime of the original
> holders.?
> > Fekete warns that the disappearance of gold/silver is
> > ominous.
> > ?
> >
> 
> 
>       
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>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 08:57:27 2008
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One thing I've noticed since I was in my early twenties is that when the 
infomercials start, the something being discussed is starting to go into a 
bubble.  Although I didn't know what a bubble was when I was in my twenties.  
The first time I noticed this was either gold and high interest rates back in 
the late 70s early 80s.  And real estate (not as widespread as this last 
time, but there was a real estate bubble that popped in the early 80s).  More 
recently it has been anything from junk bonds, to stocks, real estate, 
futures, currencies, or how about those jewelry commercials.  Gold of course 
ran up and came down fairly quickly.  Real estate took a bit longer to play 
out, and I think many area didn't experience it.  In Miami there certainly 
was a bubble, and I couldn't understand why people were panicking to buy 
homes at 18-20% interest rates (insane and legalized ursury).
 
So to answer your question about,,, has it ever occurred to me that the 
hype..... yes it most certainly has.  The masses pour into various things at 
the tail ends of unsustainable upward movements in price.  Just as they panic 
out and sell at unsustainable lows of price.  I'm going to reverse the 
question and ask you to the same thing... Have YOU ever thought about the 
hype.... in a way beyond your immediate survival needs.  (See the tulip 
section below).
 
 
As to your question on currency collapse, and why would the sellers of gold 
sell if they really believed the currency is going to collapse.  As I think 
about the question here a bit,,, I think you have to follow thru on the whole 
chain or transactions... plus add in the human element.
 
Say I buy a gold coin from a local retail gold dealer.  He may take part of 
the fiat currency and buy some groceries for his family (the grocery is still 
accepting dollars),,,, and take the rest and replenish his retail gold for 
sale supplies from a gold mint.  
 
The gold mint takes the dealer's dollars because the gold mint needs to pay 
employees in dollars who buy their groceries & supplies from stores that 
still accept dollars as a medium of exchange, and then the gold mint 
replenishes their inventory of gold by trading with various gold mining 
companies who are still accepting dollars.
 
I'm not sure if it was Fekete's article or something else I've read recent, 
but there is a point where miners stop producing, and part of that chain 
breaks down.  But let's use for example the miners no longer will accept US 
Dollars, but they might for a time still take Yuan (China).  
 
Gold still gets swapped for various currencies in the process.  And while not 
used consistently as a direct currency, certainly throughout history gold has 
been used as a currency.  
 
 
If production slows, or if mints/deals will no longer accept currencies, and 
hoarding increases, the supply squeeze is on.  As the masses become more 
aware of this, they start to think there is a reason for them to own it.  As 
they start to increase demand, price in local currency escalates into a panic 
bubble.  Bubbles statistically are "visible" when price has risen over 2000% 
(gold at today's price is not in a bubble yet).  
 
One must understand their reason for making an investment in gold.  If one 
thinks that the dollar is going to go thru a hyper-inflation and collapse, 
gold will go thru a bubble, a panic mode of buying, a mania - that has 
nothing to do with an immediate concern of putting food on the table today.  
 
 
The Tulip Mania of the 1600s has repeated over and over throughout history - 
this is a very important human factor that needs to be programmed in, IMO, 
when thinking about gold.
 
People didn't need tulips in the 1600s to survive, and yet, everyone thought 
they needed them and price rose to ridiculous prices.
 
I'm positive you would never convince people they need tulips to survive.  
You can't eat them, they can't be turned into tools etc.   And yet, those who 
understand human nature, mass hysteria, understand that an early investment 
in tulips when the bubble phase is starting is a way to sell tulips later at 
a higher price in order to obtain things (via trade) needed for survival.  
 
Once the point where no more efforts of production of labor could be put into 
pursuing the acquisition of more tulips...another human component (there are 
no more fools) came into play and tulip price collapsed.
 
Buying tulips for survival, from a survival point of view, seems just as nuts 
as buying a piece of gold for survival - on the surface.  You can't eat 
either of them.  Yet there is a survival tool right there in history in 
buying tulips...
 
 
Say for example that my very first priorities are acquiring the things that I 
need for survival,,,, seeds, land, tools, domesitc animals, etc,,,, and that 
I have finished acquiring them.  (Actually, my guess is that this is the 
point where you are at.)
 
Say also that I need to have a contingency plan in case I need to replace my 
milk cow ;-) and put aside 2x the amount of currency in USDollars to purchase 
1-2 cows in the future as my insurance policy/contingency plan for when the 
cow needs to be replaced with a younger model.  If the price of a cow never 
goes higher, no worries.  And let's say that this all the money in savings I 
have - no other currency savings at all, and my currenct food production 
doesn't and can not exceed my family's consumption rate.  Which makes that 
savings of 2x the cost of a cow very important in the future.  There are no 
problems as long there is no inflation in the price of cows.
 
However, if I recognize that prices of most things have in fact been 
inflating for the past hundred years in this country, and I recognize that 
there are real reasons to believe that prices of cows are going to inflate in 
the future at an ever higher rate (caused by the Fed's reckless money 
printing bail-out scheme).... then my contingency plan of having save 2x the 
current price of a cow is going to be seriously foiled.
 
There is a real need to factor in a Tulip Mania contingency plan.  I have to 
look for the next Tulip Mania bubble so that my 2x Cow savings will increase 
in value so that when it is time to replace the old cow for a new one, I will 
have enough saved at the future inflated price.  (Either that, or buy a bull 
right now, and make some babies, and plant more hay and corn....and take in a 
boarder to help with increased labor needed.)
 
The next two bubbles are likely going to be be gold and energy.
 
 
Gold is the one not being hyped, but there is a current scam on TV.... sell 
your gold jewelry.  The infomercials are not trying to convince people to buy 
gold,,,, the infomercials are trying to convince you to sell your gold.... 
why?  Because people who understand Tulip Mania are acquiring right now the 
next tulip bubble. 
 
Yes, there are the gold bugs on the other side telling people to buy, but 
those are not the masses of people.  The masses are out there selling their 
jewelry at parties, not buying, unaware that shortages from the retail level 
and the comex level are building up, and unaware of the monetary inflationary 
pressures building up.
 
I can't remember this a/m if the largest % bubble in history was in sugar 
(some 4500% move up) or tulips.  None are under 2000%.    Most are in the 
mid-2000% range.
 
Gold from say $200 to $800 isn't anywhere near a bubble move, yet there are 
signs that indicate it could be the next bubble.  
 
Gold is a "cow" contingency plan when there is a reason to think that cows 
are going to be significantly more expensive and that gold is the next 
bubble.  Of course, you need to trade out of the gold into cows before the 
bubble pops.... otherwise, you leave the gold for your heirs for when history 
repeats (another gold bubble).
 
 
 
You asked if gold sellers really thought there was going to be a 
hyperinflation/currency collapse if they would be selling gold.  Are you 
missing that the sellers of gold are drying up.... Retail outlets don't have 
it.  Comex gold banks are being emptied.  Infomercials are trying to convince 
people to sell, not buy, their gold jewelry.  (This is similar to the 
beginning of the tulip mania phase where all the bulbs were initially 
acquired.)
 
Sellers are on Ebay and similar sites, asking prices that reveal the seller 
bought at the recent high (~1,000) and is hoping to recover since he can't 
sell at spot at the price, and they are probably thinking that gold won't 
rise again, which is why they are selling.... and they are getting their 
price too, because others believe that >$1,000 is on the horizon.
 
Can you eat gold?  Hell no.
Can you make it into a bullet to shoot a deer?  Maybe, I don't know.
 
Is there any reason to think all the money printing by the Fed and our 
irresponsibile congress is going to cause prices of cows and all imported 
goods to inflate?  Yes.
 
Can "tulip bubbles" be used as a contingency plan to offset inflation?  Yes.
 
Are there any signs that gold is in the initial phase of a bubble?  I believe 
so.
 
What are the historical average percentage moves for bubbles?  2000% - 3000%
 
 
I think of gold as a type of "cow" continency plan.  If you have excess 
savings beyond survival needs, do you put all your excess savings in gold?  
No.  Enough for a cow?  Probably a good idea.
 
Some people buy health insurance policies because they are making a bet that 
their current savings (plus the monthly premiums being spent) won't be enough 
for a future medical need.
 
Some people buy home insurance because they are making a bet (it's called 
hedging actually) that if their home burns down, their current savings plus 
insurance monthly insurance premiums will not be enough to pay off the 
mortgage or rebuild a home.
 
Some people buy gold to hedge against the collapse in purchasing power of a 
currency, utilizing the price movement inherent in human nature best 
exhibited in history by "tulip mania".
 
And James, I really do value your observation (along with Fekete) that there 
are times when gold has NO value.  You made me aware of this for the first 
time.  It is a "skinny end" on the probability curve - a human factor and 
historical factor I was completely and totally unaware of.  I totally missed 
factoring that in. 
 
 
(Note:  The Y2K bubble was no different than the tulip bubble.  Some profited 
handsomely from it at the programmer level.  Some profited from it at the 
investor level - those who recognized the bubble forming early on.  And the 
bubble expand until the masses participated. It didn't pop until there were 
no fools left.... and in that case when the dates flipped.)
 
 
 ----ok on for the other question.... let me re-phrase...
 
I had interpreted something you wrote at one point that you have "hedged" 
yourself so that you could close your front gates and survive without 
obtaining supplies from the outside for some 5 years.   I interpreted that to 
mean that you thought that there was a high probability that you would have 
to do that --- not so much for roving gangs of theives, but because supplies 
from beyond the front gates might not be available (or too costly to obtain). 
 If that is correct, what I'm asking is have you speculated at all about an 
approximate time frame that you think that might occur - where supplies are 
unavailable or difficult to obtain.
 
Or did I misinterpret your prior writings?  
 
 
 


--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Clansgian AT wmconnect.com <Clansgian AT wmconnect.com> wrote:

From: Clansgian AT wmconnect.com <Clansgian AT wmconnect.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 10:34 AM

>>  History supports James' points a couple weeks ago that
gold/silvere will 
> 

Leslie, as far as gold goes, one must per force separate the pearls from the 
rotting oysters as far as "experts" and "smart people" and
their advice on 
gold.  99.9% of the advice about why gold is such a good investment comes 
from 
people  who hope to earn a lot of money selling you gold.  Separate out the 
people whose livelihood or investment values don't depend on your
willingness to 
be caught up in they hype and buy gold, and picture changes dramatically.

Has it ever occured to you that if these golkniks really believe that 
currency is about to collapse and gold will hold its value or greatly increase
in 
value, why in the world would they be wanting to sell their gold to you for
said 
currency??  Whey wouldn't they be keeping it themselves?

Through Fekete's writing (and there is a great deal more along these lines 
from other writers) you understand that gold has not always been a viable 
token

of exchange.  It makes me feel as if I am not wasting my time after all.  
Gold 
coins have very rarely been used for everyday transactions.  One did not stop 
at the inn in the middle ages and pay for his sup and bed with gold coins.  
The farmer of a century ago did not fill the buckboard with supplies at the 
general store and pay for it with gold coins.  The denominations were far too 
large.  Gold was used for very large debts.  If you had a gold coin and wanted
to 
take care of your daily or weekly expenses for a while, you'd have to 
exchange it for other currency unless you'd be willing to give me the gold
coin for a 
dozen eggs, an excange which I'd seriously consider.

During times that Fekete is talking about if there is no established currency 
and means for translating that exchange into gold, the gold is more or less 
useless.

And as he pointed out, and as most goldniks that actually understand gold 
point out, the storage value of gold is not in having it available for you to
buy 
bread and cloth and fuel with when TSHTF, but rather a very LONG term storage 
that you family has prospects of using two generations from now if you manage 
it keep it quietly hidden.

It has been pointed out by Fekete that there were times in history where the 
trafficking in gold comes to a stand still, that is, gold loses all of its 
value as a medium of exchange.  For the golkniks to shake their pouch of 
coins 
and demand that the gold still has value is like arguing how many angels can 
dance on the head of a pin.   It would be like being in the desert with an
empty 
water bottle and demanding that it was valuable and would save you because 
someday it would likely have water in it again.

So we've seen the times in history where if you were there with only your 
sack of gold coins, you'd have starved to death anyway.  Let's look at
the 
proposal of the goldniks.  Can you point ot an example where there has been a 
collapse of the currency (or even a drastic devaluation) and those holding 
gold
were 
able to buy land, livestock, farm tools, and grub stake supplies with the 
gold they were holding?  No?  It's because it doesn't happen that way,
never has.

We've heard that farmland here or there sells for so much an acre and if I 
took this jingly purse of gold coins which are worth that much times that 
many 
acres, I could buy that farm ... so that proves gold has value, right?  No.  
That is only possible because of a supported and enforced currency.  What if
the 
currency collapsed and you showed up to buy that and with your leathern pouch 
of gold coins,  could you get the land owner to agree.  History says
'no'.  

So in thinking about gold, first filter out where the information is coming 
from.  If the source is mainly infomercials and web sites of people who make 
money talking you into buying gold and the "experts" of finance are
those whose 
ONLY asset would be gold if things got dicey,  you can understand the bias.  
But if you study the history of gold written by those who have no material 
investment in thy hype, you see a very different story.


>  
> James, do you have any time line of your own in mind on when you think you

> might find yourself in a position to have to close your own front gates?
> 

If you mean that I cannot depend on the outside world for the things my 
family needs to survive and thrive, that timeline would be twenty years ago,
and 
that's only because I started way too late.  Our existence is divided into
two 
distinct parts:  what we need to physically survive and be comfortable on the 
one hand and the superfluity and frills on the other.  We worked dilegently 
to 
make sure our food, fuel, and other such needs were secured by our own work 
and cleverness without reference to the outside world.  And this does not 
consist of a mirthless bowl of gruel eaten in a cold and gloomy hovel.  Among
us we 
read as many as 20 books in two weeks.  We are all filled to the brim with 
stories and when the night or winter closes in, we often sit by the fire and 
relate them.  We all play musical instruments and sometimes get into one of
those 
rounds where we make up the verses as we go and those will involve events in 
our life together, charicatures of people we know.  

That is, as the title of an old Appalachian tune would have it, there are 
Fine Times at Our House.

As I have described before, we also participate in the wider world, but we do 
NOT depend on it.  

But if by closing the gates you mean to protect ourselves from the roving 
hordes of angry day traders and exectutive secretaries that have suddenly 
found

themselves destitute and on the rampage, that point on the time line would be 
never.  

James

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>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 09:41:27 2008
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Subject: Re: [Homestead] Musical chickens
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Chicken moving day LOL...
 
Memories for me in the past.......... chicken moving day meant moving the 
chickens from the chicken coop into the cement horse barn in one of the horse 
stalls as part of hurricane preparations.  Fortuntately, my box stalls were 
large 12x14 and I had two horses who didn't mind sharing a stall to make room 
for all the chickens coming in temporarily.  The chickens loved coming in the 
barn and set about busily scatching under the bedding looking for bugs.  But 
it was a bit of a chore to catch them all and move them back and forth before 
and after storms.
 


--- On Wed, 12/24/08, EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>
Subject: [Homestead] Musical chickens
To: "Homestead List" <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 6:40 PM

Today was chicken moving day.
Ron helped me finish tarping the old coop and the oldest birds, the 8
free birds that are about 10 weeks old, were moved into the old coop.
They will remain there until fully grown at which time I will merge that
flock with my mature birds.  That freed up the chicken tractor, so after
pulling out some of the bedding hay and moving the tractor to fresh
ground, we put the 19 chickens from the first hatching into the chicken
tractor with a light.  They are now 4+ weeks old and starting to get
real feathers.  One of them is really cool looking, it has a very fine
barred pattern, black on white. I'm definitely going to have some
interesting looking chickens with all these mutt genetics, but that's
fine with me-hybrid vigor. :)
So after they were moved, I cleaned up the cage and waters and moved the
14 Second Hatch chicks from their box in the house to the cage in the
greenhouse.   All is well, all chickens are happy, and the house smells
better<G>.
The coyotes were howling more tonight than I have heard them in a long
time.  It makes me question the security of my birds, but I think I have
done all I can do with the resources at hand.  I am really grateful to
have 33 chicks, 8 juniors, and 6 mature birds.  47 is a good number.
I finished cooking for the day, chickens are done, chores are done, now,
I have to clean the bathrooms, mop, dust...he's coming,,,,I feel it.

Bev

-- 
The true significance of Sacajawea's involvement in the Lewis & Clark
expedition is that it was the first documented trip in history where men
asked a woman for directions and followed them, allowing them to arrive
at their destination.
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>From erthnsky AT bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 25 09:54:29 2008
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I'm sorry, Lynda.
That's the military for you, jerking with people's plans.
No sign of my kid yet, but I still have hope; it's fading a bit, but it
is still there.

B

Lynda wrote:
> No.  In fact, they had everyone scheduled to work today.  They all showed up
> and about 1/2 hour later they were all sent home.  He called just a bit
> irritated.  If he'd known they were going to give them an extra day off,
> then he could have made plans.

--
"The world is my country, all mankind are my
  brethren, and to do good is my religion."
  Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809)