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[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

Lynn wrote:
> > I do believe that we are evolving. There are a lot of people who 
> > don't want war and don't agress against their nieghbors. The ones 
> > who still do cause most of the  trouble in the world. My hope is 
> > that someday the peace loving people will predominate and the 
> > bully/warriors will be seen as pathological.

sjc wrote:

> ???  I  think it's hard to say it a species given......how about the
>  Inuit?  the Zapotec?  the Tahitians? the Ladahki?  These are old 
> societies, and have for many years chosen peace over war, beginning 
> in their personal lives within their own spheres, and in some cases 
> carrying a lack of willingness to be aggressive to the point of 
> declining to defend themselves.  Whole societies/cultures have been 
> decimated because of a refusal to be violent.  So while it may be 
> that if the planet lasts long enough that all these people are wiped
>  out, and we actually lose whatever it is that causes some of us, 
> individually and culturally, to seek a peaceful outcome to conflicts,
>  it doesn't seem to me to be a 'given' that we are a warring species.
Part of what you, SJ, are saying illustrates my point, that those who
don't fight, die.  Like you say, whole cultures, whole groups of people
are gone.  Lynn, in a natural, Darwinian world, is it survival of the
fittest, or not?  If it is, then these people are 'less fit', not more
'evolved' as they did not fight to survive; they either could not or
would not defend themselves. In the right environment, a peaceful group
can survive for a time.  I think the Mennonites/Anabaptists/Amish are an
example of a peaceful group that is not wiped out because it exists
within an insulated environment in a country where they have
constitutional protection.  Inside of the USA might be the only place in
the world where such a group can survive.
The bullies/warriors of the world probably are pathological, but if you
don't protect yourself from them, they will kill you all the same.  Just
because you don't go out looking for war doesn't mean you aren't a
warrior.  Perhaps when I originally said warring I should have said
violent, but whatever...in my mind, a tendency for violent behavior is
part of who we are as a species-it's the animal in us...Animals often
defend themselves quite violently, obliterating the threat.  They also
'war' (if you have not seen the footage of a troop of apes hunting other
apes, you should try to find it)  Fight or flight only works for the
individual, and neither guarantees survival. In groups, there must be a
consensus of which way to run, how far, what to take, who will carry
who, who will be left behind, etc.  As long as people come into contact
with other people, there will be conflict, and unfortunately, because we
are animals, that conflict will often be violent.  When groups of people
become violent, then you can call it a war.
People study martial arts for their entire lives, and yet,
remain peaceful,,,,,still, they *study* warfare.  Why would an evolved
peaceful species study warfare?
Just because someone lives in a generally peaceful society (and I think
it is all relative-the US is certainly more peaceful than Somalia at
present) doesn't mean they aren't biologically capable of violence. It's
a holdover from survival/evolutionary needs, as you know.  The problem
comes when somehow people become 'miswired' and you get that
pathological, mental illness aspect going.  Whole groups of people can
be affected, brainwashed, and we all know this to be true.  In modern
times, this is how you explain war to yourself, I think, that such and
such leader is the mentally ill (psychopath, sociopath,addict, bi-polar,
schizophrenic) warmonger and that person/group victimizes the peaceful
types.  If you don't believe in Evil, then you must believe in Mental
Illness. Whatever, it is the same in the end,,,,it is you vs. them.

Secondly, I take issue with your ideas of peaceful societies...In the
first place, many of the groups you listed were essentially very small
in population as well as nomadic...moving away from conflict, moving
into new areas with new resources and new opportunities. However, as
populations grow and there becomes less land, more fighting happens
because as I alluded to in my first post, resources are limited and
people have needs. When populations grow, and there is no longer space
to move away, then groups must stand and fight or stand and die.

The Inuit, in areas of the Northwest Territories where large numbers of
their groups lived, did have violent conflict with each other, not much
grant you, but some. But beyond that, they also fought back against the
aggressive actions of the French, the English, the Canadians, the
Germans and others.  That is why they have survived.  Now, they mostly
fight their battles in court.  They know they have no power against
ships like the Steve Irwin(remember my Whale Wars post?)  I think Lynn
might call that evolving, but evolution doesn't happen that quickly over
a few hundred years.
Zapotec and Tahitians non-violent??? Didn't they practice human
sacrifice?  Dance with spears in martial arts like dances?  Was that
just the Maori, or am I confused?
I don't know who the Ladahki are, and I can't research it now, sorry.

> Many of the old matriarchial societies practiced peaceful existence 
> and searched for peaceful solutions.

Like I said in my original post, no one wants war or conflict.  Sane
people will always look for peaceful solutions, but in the end, to put
down the evilbadguy, they will fight or they will die.  I don't think
there is a culture/human group on Earth that would not fight to survive.
If tomorrow some group or the other started in the East and started the
equivalent of a Viking raid on Amish farms, killing, raping, burning,
pillaging, many Amish would die..I don't know how far West the raid
would go, but I think by the time the vikings raiders reached Ohio that
the Amish would be fighting back. They would group together and fight
back.  That's what I think.


> So maybe it's not that we humans are a warring species, but rather 
> that we're able to learn a 'skill', or coping methodology, that seems
>  to serve us well, whether peaceful or aggressive.

I'll have to give that some thought..


Bev



--
“Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to
hate. Hate leads to suffering.”        Yoda