Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@Dr.Furuli:

Ok, let me attempt to critic the NWT according to its procedure.  You wrote

.Dr.Furili: This English word 
> should represent the core meaning of the Hebrew concept, and the target 
> group should, on the basis of the use of this word in the Bible, be able to 
> clothe this word "with flesh," exactly what was necessary in the case of 
> Luther and the KJV. Given the principles of a literal translation, it is a 
> blind alley to ask what "time indefinite" means for the average English 
> speaker and whether it is regularly used in daily speech (but it was of 
> course proper for Kelton to ask about its meaning). The question is whether 
> it adequately can represent the core meaning of the Hebrew word (WLM, and 
> whether it effectively can be used by the English target group to get some 
> idea of the Hebrew concept behind (WLM. My answer is Yes! BTW, I personally 
> think the reference of Ecc 1:4 is eternality, but I think "to time 
> indefinite" is the best rendeering inthis verse. 

Response: I think I understand your points, but does "time-indefinite" really 
capture the core essence of 'WLM?  You mentioned earlier that you thought 
it's core meaning was "hidden time" or "undisclosed time."  But "indefinite" 
does not mean either of those.

Indefinite just means not specific, I don't think you could argue that it 
means not revealed, undisclosed, or hidden.

Hidden/unrevealed time is different than not specific/indefinite time.
>From kgraham0938 AT comcast.net  Wed Nov 16 12:31:59 2005
Return-Path: <kgraham0938 AT comcast.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [63.240.77.83])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544C74C008
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:31:59 -0500 
(EST)
Received: from smailcenter44.comcast.net ([204.127.205.144])
        by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP
        id <20051116173153013003e8gme>; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:31:53 +0000
Received: from [69.136.149.33] by smailcenter44.comcast.net;
        Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:31:51 +0000
From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:31:51 +0000
Message-Id: 
<111620051731.18125.437B6D07000BA706000046CD2200734840C8CCC7CF030E080E9D0905 AT comcast.net>
X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004)
X-Authenticated-Sender: a2dyYWhhbTA5MzhAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:31:59 -0000

@Karl:

Let me give you a quote then:  This is from "A Guide to Biblical Hebrew 
Syntax" by Bill T.Arnold & John H.Choi p 155.

"Occansionally, KIY will function to introduce an interrogative clause: KIY 
HADAM `EC HA&ADEM, Are the trees of the field as human beings?" (Duet 20:19) 
KIY-HICYLW 'ET &M:RON MIYYADIY, have they delivered Samaria from my hand (2 
Kings 18:34).

So I think the argument here is that KIY sometimes introduces interrogatives.

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Um, Kelton, the sign of the interrogative in 2 Kings 18:34 
> is the )YH Where? at the beginning of the sentence. The 
> hey following KY is part of the Hiphil verb. 
> 
> But if you know of anywhere where the interrogative 
> follows a KY I would like to see it. Thanks. 
> 
> Karl W. Randolph. 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net 
> > 
> > @Ben & Karl: 
> > 
> > I would argue that occasionally KIY does function to introduce an 
> > interrogative clause. Another example besides this one that I can 
> > find is 2 Kings 18:34 
> > 
> > KIY-HICIYLW 'ET &M:RON MIYYADIY = have they delivered Samaria from my 
> > hand? 
> > 
> > I think the same principle applies here in this passage here in 
> > Duet 20:19 the KIY introduces the interrogative. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Kelton Graham 
> > KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net 
> 
> -- 
> ___________________________________________________ 
> Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/ 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> b-hebrew mailing list 
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew 
>From kwrandolph AT email.com  Wed Nov 16 12:48:29 2005
Return-Path: <kwrandolph AT email.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com
        (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550794C008
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:48:29 -0500 
(EST)
Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180])
        by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id
        7A4AD1800415
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:46:21 +0000 
(GMT)
X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.182)
        by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 16 Nov 2005 04:32:17 -0000
Received: by ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001)
        id 5103E1CE6B8; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 04:14:38 +0000 (GMT)
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:14:38 -0500
Received: from [69.227.59.54] by ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for
        kwrandolph AT email.com; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:14:38 -0500
X-Originating-Ip: 69.227.59.54
X-Originating-Server: ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com
Message-Id: <20051116041438.5103E1CE6B8 AT ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:48:29 -0000

Thanks, Ben, for your response.

Your final sentence fits the context of this verse, which=20
was further developed by the following verse.

The context is also one of the reasons that I questioned=20
if H)DM is a verb instead of a noun.

One problem is that I do not remember seeing anywhere=20
where an interrogative hey follows a KY in a sentence.

Are there any variant readings, possibly in the DSS,=20
for this verse? It looks as if the reading may have been=20
KY H)D M(C but I'm guessing.

The basic idea is that fruit trees are not to be cut to make=20
siege weapons, but I don't see how H)DM as a noun fits=20
in there.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: ben.crick AT argonet.co.uk=20
>=20
> On Tue 15 Nov 2005 (15:03:58), kwrandolph AT email.com wrote:
> > Within the sentence structure, it looks as if H)DM should be a=20
> > verb, but there is none listed in the dictionary that fits  this
> > context. If a verb, which one? Could it be from the same root as )YD ?
> >
> > LXX doesn't seem to make any sense here either.
> >
> > In the critical apparatus of Biblica Hebreica it was noted that=20
> > some recognize this as interrogative prefix, however if so, that=20
> > should be on the KY, not on )DM.
>=20
>   KiY Ha'aDaM `eC Ha&&aReH LaBo' MiPPaNeYKa BaMMaCoWR
>=20
>   Most of the modern translations make the last clause of verse 19 a
>   rhetorical question, taking the He of He'aDaM as He interrogativa
>   pointed with seghol. In this they are following the BHS footnote.
>   The history of this interpretation is given by Keil & Delitzsch /ad loc/
>   (which see).
>=20
>   H)DM cannot be the subject of the sentence, but from its position
>   it may be the object.
>=20
>   The Vulgate has /quoniam lignum est et non homo nec potest bellantium
>   contra te augere numerum/.
>=20
>   The NRSV has "Are trees in the field human beings that they should come
>   under siege from you?".
>=20
>   The NIV has "Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege
>   them?".
>=20
>   The point seems to be that fruit trees should not be devastated in a
>   time of siege, so that afterwards the survivors may have something left
>   to eat.
>=20
>   Shalom
>   Ben
> --
>   Revd Ben Crick, BA CF                                       ZFC Hf
>   <ben.crick AT NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
>   232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
> *Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
> *Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
>   114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.

--=20
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/