Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Exactly!

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Peter Kirk
Sent: Tue 11/15/2005 2:37 PM
To: Awohili AT aol.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite) II
 
On 15/11/2005 13:56, Awohili AT aol.com wrote:

> 
>I, too, am a native speaker of English, and to me "to time indefinite" and  
>"indefinitely" signal the same thing.
> 
>  
>
I just did a Google search on "to time indefinite". There are only 506 
hits, indicating that this phrase is not a common one. 18 out of the 
first 20 hits appear to be quotations from NWT or discussions of 
Jehovah's Witnesses' teaching. I strongly suspect that this phrase is 
meaningless except to those who have been taught its meaning by 
Jehovah's Witnesses. It is certainly meaningless to me.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] NIV v' NWT translation policy
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Putting all our pre-indoctrinated ideas aside and having considered 
the merits of both the NIV and the NWT translations, could it be 
that a 'good' translation would be a balance of the two?

That is to say that we take the NWT's approach of consistent translation 
and combine that with the NIV's 'make a natural language' approach.
I believe it is quite possible to combine both of these goals and 
to produce a superior translation which both preserves the reader's right 
to be able to read and interpret Yah's words, with the help of his spirit, 
and makes use of faithful natural language constructions only.

As I have stated in the past, I intend to demonstrate this with my 
translation programme, the design of which is almost complete.

My programme will soon be sweeping the internet in a manner similar to 
Google's algorithm (crawling from link to link) and will parse and store 
the frequency of every word and combination of words (mistakes included)
in every modern language that the visible web has to offer.
This database of word/phrase frequencies will be the basis of a new database 
of numbers. Each unique number will represent one 'concept', which I believe 
to be common denominator of all languages. And through intelligent self 
correction mechanisms the programme will decide when a particular phrase 
can map to a particular concept. As the entire algorithm is guided by 
concepts 
(with meanings) and phrases alone it will not be able to produce unnatural 
language yet will remain faithful and consistent in its mappings.

However,it will not fall into the trap that the NWT has in that it will not 
generate plastic translations in order to satisfy an exagerated faithfulness 
to any one particular word as it will only demonstrate this level of 
faithfulness to well established patterns of words within their natural 
contexts.

Nor will it fall into the trap that the NIV has of denying the right to 
interpret 
the text of the reader by forcing any particular random idiom which supports 
any particular doctrine as idiomatic translations will only be performed as a 
result of careful meaning establishing mechanisms which map contexts to 
idiomatic 
expressions.

When my project is complete the entire source code will made available under 
open 
source license so that the code can be subjected to rigourous international 
peer review. This will be to ensure that I am not allowed to inject my own 
personal 
beliefs into the mechanism (something which we are all guilty of from time to 
time).

James Christian Read

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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Eccl 1:4 was Re:  Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite)
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Peter Kirk" <peter AT qaya.org>, "Rolf Furuli" <furuli AT online.no>
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>Is it because you are incorporating into the text "the biases 
>and theology of the translators", which may tell you that the earth does 
>not actually last for ever?

But Peter, JW's believe the earth WILL last forever. In fact, it is one 
of their most fundamental beliefs. And so in those contexts it would be 
far more conducive for them to write 'forever' so your argument here 
does not stand because it only goes to show that they are willing to 
make these sacrifices in order to perform a uniform translation.

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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Solomon may well have written this on a bad day but it unfair to presume that 
this means it affected his theological viewpoint. There is much great godly 
wisdom to be gleaned from Qohelet and in fact some of David's most beautiful 
psalms were the result of times of great distress.
It is clear what Solomon thought about the afterlife and this view is in 
complete 
agreement with the rest of the Tanakh. It may well be that he was having a 
bad 
day but nothing in Qohelet present a theological viewpoint any different to 
the 
testimony of the rest of the hebrew bible.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Dave Washburn
Sent: Mon 11/14/2005 11:35 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Eccl 1:4 was Re:  Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite)
 
Paying attention to things like genre, context and clear authorial intent 
hardly constitutes "interpretation." One of the most important questions we 
can ask in translation and exegesis is "what questions should I be asking?"  
This is true especially in a book like Ecclesiastes.  Both the immediate and 
wider context of the book make it quite clear that the author is not making a 
theological statement in 1:4, but a comment about what things *seem to be* 
from his limited (and somewhat despairing) perspective.  A translation that 
doesn't take such things into account is not giving the reader everything 
s/he needs in order to make an interpretation.

On Monday 14 November 2005 14:41, Rolf Furuli wrote:
> Dear Dave,
>
> Your words below are your interpretation, and it is your privilege to make
> one. I would let the reader make his or her interpretation, and therefore I
> find "time indefinite" fitting.
>
> > On Monday 14 November 2005 10:25, Rolf Furuli wrote:
> >> Dear Peter,
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Translators using the idiomatic method all the time make decisions in
> >> behalf of the readers, and the readers have no part in the translation
> >> process. Translators of the literal translation make as few decisions as
> >> possible in behalf of the readers, and therefore the readers can have a
> >> part in the very translation process.  This is one way to interpret the
> >> term
> >> "semi-translation".
> >>
> >> A good example is Ecclesiastes 1:4.
> >> NIV: Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains for
> >> ever. NWT: A generation is going and a generation is coming; but the
> >> earth is standing even to time indefinite.
> >>
> >> An important question here is: Who is going to decide whether the writer
> >> implies that the earth may stand a long time and then be destroyed, or
> >> whether the meaning is that the earth will continue to stand without an
> >> end? The translator or the reader?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Actually, this is the wrong question.  A more important and pertinent
> > question
> > is context: is this a theological statement at all?  The answer is a
> > resounding "no."  The whole book repeatedly uses statements like "as I
> > have
> > seen," "man under the sun," and so forth.  Neither the author nor the
> > narrator is making any kind of theological statement in this verse.  He's
> > saying "From what I've seen, nothing ever changes.  Generations rise and
> > fall, the earth is always there."  From this kind of POV, and in such a
> > context, "forever" is a much better rendering because it conveys the
> > perspective of the observer making the statement.  Whether it is
> > theologically in accord with the rest of the Hebrew Bible is irrelevant,
> > because that's not where this narrator is coming from.  From his earthly,
> > somewhat despairing viewpoint, the earth does indeed continue forever. 
> > So if
> > we're going to be true to the intent of the text, this is how we ought to
> > render it.
> >
> > --
> > Dave Washburn
> > http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
> > "Maybe I'll trade it for a new hat."
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

-- 
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"Maybe I'll trade it for a new hat."
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>From rob AT designceramics.co.uk  Wed Nov 16 19:41:05 2005
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite) II
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Dear Peter and Kelton,
Firstly, on the ability of olam to describe time that is less than endless.
Peter you requested evidence that it does not just mean forever,
Ge 6:4; De 32:7 and Job 22:15 (pos. Time of ones elders) Jos 24:2; 1 Sam 
27:8; Isa 51:9,11; 63:9; Ez 36:2; Pr 22:28; 32:10; Jer 6:16; 18:15; 28:8 Isa 
58:12; 61:4; Mic 7:5; Mal 3:4; Ezr 4:15,19.
I think these adequately demonstrate that olam does not always refer to time 
that is endless.
Seondly on the potential meaning of "time indefinite".
Kelton you nicely describe the thrust of meaning this phrase has when taken 
alone without context. I would say that the potential meaning is a little 
wider, my dictionary defines the word "indefinite" as "without exact limits" 
and one synonym listed is "unlimited" - that is not the thrust but it is part 
of the potental. Just a little caution on the technique of defining a word by 
means of its componants, whilst your analysis was just fine for the word 
"indefinite" the same would not be true of the word "indefinitely" which has 
a distincly different meaning(but you probably knew that ;-).
In view of what kelton described as to the meaning of "time indifinite" and 
what Peter has said about the expression not being common English, it is 
expected that idiomatic translator's would reject it. In many contexts the 
reader might ask as did Kelton 'what does that mean?' In other contexts the 
meaning is readily apparent e.g. Ps104:5 "It will not be made to totter to 
time indefinite, or forever"
If translator's are going to invent some new word or phrase, they surely 
should have a good reason to! Like, there not already being a word or phrase 
in the target language that conveys the original thought with the desired 
accuracy.
A techinque of study that I greatly value is a standard method used by 
lexicographers, whereby they carefully compare synonyms in an attempt to 
discern any small differences between the way the words are used (are there 
any works that make a project of this other than Girdlestone's, which I 
have?). In my opinion while the thrust of olam is "forever" it has the 
potential to describe a period of time that will end. Now the original writer 
may have just picked the word indiscriminately from a pool of words meaning 
'forever', or he may have chosen it specifically for its unique potential to 
convey a specific thought. Who should decide, the translator?, or the reader? 
With respect to the source language it was the reader, if that is to be the 
case with the target language the translator must distinguish the words as 
far as practically possible. In my opinion "time indefinite" serves this 
purpose and is properly understood by the English student (I say 'student' 
instead of 'reader' because the reader needs to learn through their reading 
what the expression properly conveys.). This is the approach of NWT, they 
also often distinguish for example between the Hebrew words for man, and if I 
remember rightly to some degree even the words for lion. This is all with the 
objective of conveying as far as possible the full force of the Hebrew. This 
is at the sacrafice of literary style and even in some cases smooth 
communication, the reader is made to work, but gets out more than they put 
in. You may dislike this approach and that is up to you, but please 
understand it, and see its advantages as well as disadvantages.
Robert Newman