Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Polycarp66 AT aol.com]

In a message dated 2/10/2003 6:25:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
furuli AT online.no writes:

> I appreciate your questions, because it is impossible to cover all 
> points in a short posting. So let me elucidate.
> 
> I do not think that the Masoretes followed any Christian tradition, 
> to the effect that their vowel-points were based on )DNY which was a 
> translation of KURIOS. Frankly, we do not know the basis of the 
> vowels of the Masoretes. But the point I tried to make, was that 
> there is no evidence before the days of Jehuda hannasi of any 
> substitution of YHWH by )ADNY. So, I guess that the tradition that 
> guided the Masoretes was the tradition of the Mishna, the Talmuds and 
> old Rabbinic texts.  If I remember correctly, in the first chapter of 
> Avot we find "Sinai", "the name of heaven" as substitues fro YHWH, so 
> it is evident that several substitutes for YHWH existed at that time.
> 
> Another point which was implied in my discussions, is that there is 
> much incorrect information given regarding the substitution of YHWH 
> in the B.C.E and first century C.E. by fine scholars in lexicons and 
> textbooks. The most important error is that the Septuagint 
> substituted YHWH with KURIOS - this is definitely wrong! Another is 
> that before the start of the C.E. the name was no longer used. While 
> this is true in some cases, there is no evidence that even the 
> majority viewed the name as ineffable at that time.
> 
> Because I do not know the basis for the Masoretic pointing, I cannot 
> say anything about whether the Christian use of KURIOS played any 
> role for the Masoretes. I have no objections to the general view that 
> the choice of vowels by the Masoretes for YHWH was based on the 
> vowels of )DNY.  However, I stress that there is no evidence for a 
> substitution of YHWH by )DNY in the days of the second temple.
> 
I have wished to stay clear of this discussion once Rolf got involved because 
we have been through this before extensively, and I know that he has a 
monomania regarding this subject.  I cannot let this pass, however, without 
comment.

1.  The LXX translation used KURIOS for the tetragrammaton before the rise of 
christianity.  This in itself is evidence for the use of )DNY for the 
tetragrammaton apart from any christian doctrine of the trinity.

2.  The doctrine of the trinity was something which developed over several 
centuries and was not codified until the Council of Nicaea in 325.

3.  Manuscripts in which a paleo-hebrew form of the tetragrammaton are found 
would themselves be evidence that there was a special significance assigned 
to the name and potentially as well a substitution of a qere for the 
tetragrammaton.

Thus the assertion that the disappearance of the usage of the tetragrammaton 
was driven by trinitarian theological considerations fails.  But then, some 
will use anything they think possible to defend their position.

gfsomsel
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From: "Daladier Lima" <daladiersantos AT bol.com.br>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Questions about Job
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:57:28 -0300
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If the SONS OF GOD in Job are angels, then in Bereshit 6, who are?

Daladier Lima
Brazil