Biblical Hebrew Forum

[furuli AT online.no]

Dear Bill,

If we look at the question from a historical point of view, it was 
not a particular interpretation of Scripture that caused people to 
stop pronouncing YHWH, but rather foreign influence. In the centuries 
after Alexander the Great, the Jews were in many ways influenced by 
Greek thoughts, including Plato's view that God is nameless. "A 
bitter struggle between Hellenists and Hasidim centered around the 
pronunciation of the Divine Name." according to rabbi A. Marmorstein 
(1927) "The Old Rabbinic Doctrine of God", p 13. The people at Qumran 
ceased pronouncing the name while the Pharisees, Haemerobaptistae and 
others continued to pronounce the name.

There are three passages in the Tanach that has something to do with 
the use of the name, namely,  Lev 24.16, Ex 3.15 and 20:7. 
Manuscripts of the LXX from the second century C.E. translate Lev 
24:16 in a way suggesting that the name should not be used (we do not 
know the original wording); Targum Onkelos does about the same. 
However, the rabbis of old did *not* use Lev 24:16 or Ex 20:7 as 
reason for not pronouncing the name, according to G. F. Moore (1955) 
"Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era. the Age of the 
Tannaim Judaism", vol I, p. 428.

It is quite strange that the very passage that definitely says that 
the name should always be used, is the passage that was used to show 
that the name should not be pronounced, namely, Ex 3:15. For those 
interested in the four fanciful ways the words of this verse were 
explained to say the opposite of what they do say, please look at the 
Jewish lexicon M. M. Kasher (1967) "The Encyclopedia of Biblical 
Interpretation", vol II, p. 109.



Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo






> Dear Christian Scholars,
> I asked Rabbi Moshe Laurie, about the 'name in vain' commandment. We 
> agrEed that a literal translation would be " NO MAKING / DOING A 
> NAME OF THE LORD GOD".
> I aked him what  it would mean to make (or do) a name, and he said 
> "USE".(an idea thAt comes up in Amos 6:10), as in the Orthodox 
> Jewish tradition generally.Am I suposed to say "ALLE:U-ADONAI"? 
> Anthropologists have studied a phenomenon that might be called 
> name-referent confusion  Could that be playing a role here? As for 
> invoking the doctrine of the Trinity to help "traanslate" the 
> tetragrammaton, there are a number of heresies one might waant to 
> svoid. Rendering the Tetragraammaaton as "Yesshua" or "Jesus" might 
> leave one open to a charge of Sabellianism (A a "CONFUSION OF THE 
> PERSONS" heresy).Perhaps the tetragraammaton is like the three dot 
> ellipsis in
> 1, 2, 3, ... .. The problem with translating or saying it is that it 
> represents the infinte. Imaagine some poor translaator trrying to 
> trranslate an English Math book into French. He or she would be 
> ill-advised to attempt:
> un, deux, trois, quatre, cinq,
> --and so on for hundreds of pages! Omitting the vowels in G-d or 
> YHWH or YVVH puts us on the right track. In the spirit of a via 
> negativa, wwe are referring to the One who  is beyond names. He is 
> the one with a thousand names, the one we find in the perfec Silence.
> Yours truly,
> W. S. (Bill) Anglin
> pS If anyone wishes to discuss Hebrew or ORthodox  Jewish traddition 
> with an extremely talented and educated man, I reccommend  Moshse 
> Laurie. He has HAS A PASSIONSTE INTEREST IN THE 
> USE/trrraanslation of yhwh AAND HIS EMAIL IS moshe3 @aaol.com
>
> .----- Original Message -----
> From: furuli AT online.no
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 4:08 PM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD
>
>
> Dear gfsomsel,
>
>
> I disagree.  I respect the right for those who believe in the trinity
> to use "the Lord" instead of a transcription of YHWH, and I respect
> the right of those whoh only would write "G-od" to do that. At the
> same time I respect the right of the readers of the Biblical text to
> read what the text really says.  And the text of the Tanach uses YHWH
> as the proper name of God, and this should, in faithfulness to the
> text, be transcribed in English. In this way all parts would respect
> each other.
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Rolf Furuli
> University of Oslo
> From Hector3001 AT aol.com  Sun Feb  9 07:55:09 2003
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From: Hector3001 AT aol.com
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Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 07:56:10 EST
Subject: Re: Re: [b-hebrew] Lord - or Yahweh
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> > From: Polycarp66 AT aol.com
> > I got drawn into this discussion answering your comment/question on the RS=
V=20

> > preface.=A0 It then got continued much beyond what I desired.=A0 I simply=20=
do=20
not=20
> > wish to be drawn back into this discussion.
> > gfsomsel

Reply: Well, you don't have to participate in the discussion, do you. You=20
could simply step aside and let others discuss this subject that really seem=
s=20
to only bother you.

Heinz Schmitz
"The truth of the matter is that when dealing with religious writings people=
=20
are generally far less concerned with accuracy than with traditional=20
expression, familiar through long use." Toward a Science of Translating by=20
Eugene A. Nida
> From lizfried AT umich.edu  Sun Feb  9 10:23:24 2003
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From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] LORD
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:28:45 -0500
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Dear Rolf,
What troubles me about your excellent discussion
is that YHWH is used in the DSS copies
of the biblical texts.
Liz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of
> furuli AT online.no
> Sent: Sun, February 09, 2003 5:00 AM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD
>
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> If we look at the question from a historical point of view, it was
> not a particular interpretation of Scripture that caused people to
> stop pronouncing YHWH, but rather foreign influence. In the centuries
> after Alexander the Great, the Jews were in many ways influenced by
> Greek thoughts, including Plato's view that God is nameless. "A
> bitter struggle between Hellenists and Hasidim centered around the
> pronunciation of the Divine Name." according to rabbi A. Marmorstein
> (1927) "The Old Rabbinic Doctrine of God", p 13. The people at Qumran
> ceased pronouncing the name while the Pharisees, Haemerobaptistae and
> others continued to pronounce the name.
>
> There are three passages in the Tanach that has something to do with
> the use of the name, namely,  Lev 24.16, Ex 3.15 and 20:7.
> Manuscripts of the LXX from the second century C.E. translate Lev
> 24:16 in a way suggesting that the name should not be used (we do not
> know the original wording); Targum Onkelos does about the same.
> However, the rabbis of old did *not* use Lev 24:16 or Ex 20:7 as
> reason for not pronouncing the name, according to G. F. Moore (1955)
> "Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era. the Age of the
> Tannaim Judaism", vol I, p. 428.
>
> It is quite strange that the very passage that definitely says that
> the name should always be used, is the passage that was used to show
> that the name should not be pronounced, namely, Ex 3:15. For those
> interested in the four fanciful ways the words of this verse were
> explained to say the opposite of what they do say, please look at the
> Jewish lexicon M. M. Kasher (1967) "The Encyclopedia of Biblical
> Interpretation", vol II, p. 109.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Rolf Furuli
> University of Oslo
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Dear Christian Scholars,
> >I asked Rabbi Moshe Laurie, about the 'name in vain' commandment. We
> >agrEed that a literal translation would be " NO MAKING / DOING A
> >NAME OF THE LORD GOD".
> >I aked him what  it would mean to make (or do) a name, and he said
> >"USE".(an idea thAt comes up in Amos 6:10), as in the Orthodox
> >Jewish tradition generally.Am I suposed to say "ALLE:U-ADONAI"?
> >Anthropologists have studied a phenomenon that might be called
> >name-referent confusion  Could that be playing a role here? As for
> >invoking the doctrine of the Trinity to help "traanslate" the
> >tetragrammaton, there are a number of heresies one might waant to
> >svoid. Rendering the Tetragraammaaton as "Yesshua" or "Jesus" might
> >leave one open to a charge of Sabellianism (A a "CONFUSION OF THE
> >PERSONS" heresy).Perhaps the tetragraammaton is like the three dot
> >ellipsis in
> >1, 2, 3, ... .. The problem with translating or saying it is that it
> >represents the infinte. Imaagine some poor translaator trrying to
> >trranslate an English Math book into French. He or she would be
> >ill-advised to attempt:
> >un, deux, trois, quatre, cinq,
> >--and so on for hundreds of pages! Omitting the vowels in G-d or
> >YHWH or YVVH puts us on the right track. In the spirit of a via
> >negativa, wwe are referring to the One who  is beyond names. He is
> >the one with a thousand names, the one we find in the perfec Silence.
> >Yours truly,
> >W. S. (Bill) Anglin
> >pS If anyone wishes to discuss Hebrew or ORthodox  Jewish traddition
> >with an extremely talented and educated man, I reccommend  Moshse
> >Laurie. He has HAS A PASSIONSTE INTEREST IN THE
> >USE/trrraanslation of yhwh AAND HIS EMAIL IS moshe3 @aaol.com
> >
> >.----- Original Message -----
> >From: furuli AT online.no
> >Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 4:08 PM
> >To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD
> >
> >
> >Dear gfsomsel,
> >
> >
> >I disagree.  I respect the right for those who believe in the trinity
> >to use "the Lord" instead of a transcription of YHWH, and I respect
> >the right of those whoh only would write "G-od" to do that. At the
> >same time I respect the right of the readers of the Biblical text to
> >read what the text really says.  And the text of the Tanach uses YHWH
> >as the proper name of God, and this should, in faithfulness to the
> >text, be transcribed in English. In this way all parts would respect
> >each other.
> >
> >
> >Best regards
> >
> >Rolf Furuli
> >University of Oslo
> _______________________________________________
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