From qazingulaza at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 10:28:02 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 09:28:02 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Jujube In-Reply-To: <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will be something like early April - November... ~mIEKAL On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: > > Hi Jay, > Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free > days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars > could not be fully mature. > To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature in > your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. > Happy Holidays! > > Shengrui > > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >> >> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >> >> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >> Science Center in Alcalde? >> >> --Henry Fieldseth >> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters" >> >> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >> I remember the report >> saying that they >> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >> In any case you inspired me to write directly >> to Dr. Yao to see what she >> thinks. >> This is one of the things I >> appreciate about this list so much. Great >> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >> Regards, >> Jay >> Jay >> Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm >> Mt Time, 7 days >> On >> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >> > >> Jay >> > >> > The most >> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >> > The authors >> name is Shengrui Yao. >> > Also, Gordon >> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >> in NM. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Has >> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >> >> >> >> I'm in NM >> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >> >> >> >> I'm >> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >> experience? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> Jay Cutts >> >> >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> >> >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >> Cards >> >> Lead Author, Barron's >> LSAT Prep Book >> >> (505)-281-0684 >> >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________ >> >> nafex mailing list >> >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> Northamerican Allied Fruit >> Experimenters >> >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > >> __________________ >> > nafex mailing >> list >> > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Northamerican Allied Fruit >> Experimenters >> > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > >> __________________ >> nafex >> mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From orders at cuttsreviews.com Tue Jan 3 13:59:18 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 11:59:18 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Jujube In-Reply-To: References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are listed at just -10.) Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will > all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and > the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder > if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is > set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will > be something like early April - November... > > ~mIEKAL > > On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >> >> Hi Jay, >> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars >> could not be fully mature. >> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature in >> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >> Happy Holidays! >> >> Shengrui >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>> >>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>> >>> --Henry Fieldseth >>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters" >>> >>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>> I remember the report >>> saying that they >>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>> thinks. >>> This is one of the things I >>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>> Regards, >>> Jay >>> Jay >>> Cutts >>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>> (505)-281-0684 >>> 10 am to 10 pm >>> Mt Time, 7 days >>> On >>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>> > >>> Jay >>> > >>> > The most >>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>> > The authors >>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>> > Also, Gordon >>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>> in NM. >>> > >>> > Mark >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Has >>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>> >> >>> >> I'm in NM >>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>> >> >>> >> I'm >>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>> experience? >>> >> >>> >> Regards, >>> >> >>> >> Jay >>> >> >>> >> Jay Cutts >>> >> >>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>> >> >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>> >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>> Cards >>> >> Lead Author, Barron's >>> LSAT Prep Book >>> >> (505)-281-0684 >>> >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> __________________ >>> >> nafex mailing list >>> >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>> Experimenters >>> >> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> > >>> __________________ >>> > nafex mailing >>> list >>> > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> > Northamerican Allied Fruit >>> Experimenters >>> > >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> > >>> __________________ >>> nafex >>> mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From qazingulaza at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 14:34:52 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:34:52 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Jujube In-Reply-To: References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: >>Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how is it any different than having the figs outside? I No heat. In Wisconsin the hoophouse would extend the frostless growing season by 6 weeks in each end of the season... Concentrates and collects the heat. Reduce wind damage to zero. Protection from bird predation. Makes it much easier to keep the roots of the figs from freezing. Figs also do fine producing on first year wood so I'm focusing on varieties that ripen early. >>wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. I think that's pretty much what's happening, the sprouts are coming from the top of the stump that's left. it also seems like sprouts are coming from below the stump and they don't set fruit. >>Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are listed at just -10.) this is mostly what I was wondering, maybe I can just keep a few of them growing as dwarfs and wrap them the way some people wrap figs... >>Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? with the number of figs that I'm putting in that would be way too much work, but I'll probably try it for a tree or two... ~mIEKAL On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how > is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have thought > that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have > guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. > > Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I > don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like > jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are > listed at just -10.) > > Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather > than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will >> all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and >> the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder >> if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is >> set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will >> be something like early April - November... >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts >> wrote: >>> >>> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >>> >>> Hi Jay, >>> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >>> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars >>> could not be fully mature. >>> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature >>> in >>> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >>> Happy Holidays! >>> >>> Shengrui >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Jay Cutts >>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>> (505)-281-0684 >>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>> >>> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>>> >>>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>>> >>>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >>>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>>> >>>> --Henry Fieldseth >>>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>> Experimenters" >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>>> I remember the report >>>> saying that they >>>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>>> thinks. >>>> This is one of the things I >>>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>>> Regards, >>>> Jay >>>> Jay >>>> Cutts >>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>> 10 am to 10 pm >>>> Mt Time, 7 days >>>> On >>>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>>> > >>>> Jay >>>> > >>>> > The most >>>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>>> > The authors >>>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>>> > Also, Gordon >>>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>>> in NM. >>>> > >>>> > Mark >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Has >>>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm in NM >>>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm >>>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>>> experience? >>>> >> >>>> >> Regards, >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay Cutts >>>> >> >>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>> >> >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>> >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>>> Cards >>>> >> Lead Author, Barron's >>>> LSAT Prep Book >>>> >> (505)-281-0684 >>>> >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> __________________ >>>> >> nafex mailing list >>>> >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>> Experimenters >>>> >> >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> > >>>> __________________ >>>> > nafex mailing >>>> list >>>> > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>> Experimenters >>>> > >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> > >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex >>>> mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From leeareich at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 17:20:15 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jujube In-Reply-To: References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <8EA17651-C374-485E-A71A-B0FE883B3E87@gmail.com> In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to ripen. I think this would be the case even in the longer season of the hoophouse. A lot depends on the size of the hoophouse and how close the figs are to the edges. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:34 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how is it any different than having the figs outside? I > > No heat. In Wisconsin the hoophouse would extend the frostless > growing season by 6 weeks in each end of the season... Concentrates > and collects the heat. Reduce wind damage to zero. Protection from > bird predation. Makes it much easier to keep the roots of the figs > from freezing. Figs also do fine producing on first year wood so I'm > focusing on varieties that ripen early. > > > >>> wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from > the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming > off of second year wood. > > I think that's pretty much what's happening, the sprouts are coming > from the top of the stump that's left. it also seems like sprouts are > coming from below the stump and they don't set fruit. > > >>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are listed at just -10.) > > > this is mostly what I was wondering, maybe I can just keep a few of > them growing as dwarfs and wrap them the way some people wrap figs... > > >>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? > > > with the number of figs that I'm putting in that would be way too much > work, but I'll probably try it for a tree or two... > > ~mIEKAL > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how >> is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have thought >> that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have >> guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. >> >> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I >> don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like >> jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are >> listed at just -10.) >> >> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather >> than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> >>> I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will >>> all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and >>> the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder >>> if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is >>> set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will >>> be something like early April - November... >>> >>> ~mIEKAL >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >>>> >>>> Hi Jay, >>>> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >>>> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars >>>> could not be fully mature. >>>> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature >>>> in >>>> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >>>> Happy Holidays! >>>> >>>> Shengrui >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Jay Cutts >>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>> >>>> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>>>> >>>>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>>>> >>>>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >>>>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>>>> >>>>> --Henry Fieldseth >>>>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>>>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>> Experimenters" >>>>> >>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>>>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>>>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>>>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>>>> I remember the report >>>>> saying that they >>>>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>>>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>>>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>>>> thinks. >>>>> This is one of the things I >>>>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>>>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Jay >>>>> Jay >>>>> Cutts >>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>> 10 am to 10 pm >>>>> Mt Time, 7 days >>>>> On >>>>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> The most >>>>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>>>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>>>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>>>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>>>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>>>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>>>>> The authors >>>>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>>>>> Also, Gordon >>>>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>>>> in NM. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Has >>>>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in NM >>>>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>>>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>>>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>>>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>>>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>>>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>>>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>>>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>>>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm >>>>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>>>> experience? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>> >>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>> >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>>>> Cards >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's >>>>> LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>> >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing >>>>> list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>> Experimenters >>>>>> >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex >>>>> mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From alandhaigh at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 18:46:07 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:46:07 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee Reich's comment Message-ID: "In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to ripen". Which is also my experience with figs out in the open north of NY City, but as I understand it, in the Bronx and points further south by the coast, many varieties can ripen fruit after plants have frozen to the ground the previous winter, If you had them under plastic it figures to lengthen the season by a zone or 2. LSU purple, as I recall, was intentionally selected to be capable of this throughout the south. If you were growing them in something colder than Z5 some heat source might be necessary but from Z5 up my hunch is that early ripening varieties would yield good fruit. My fig trees are in Whitcomb bags and I pop them out with a spade every year in late Nov. and store them in my unheated well house. They are among my most pest free, reliable cropping fruit. Last season only they and my blueberries actually did great. From leeareich at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 21:03:50 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:03:50 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee Reich's comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?ve done the same thing with a Kadota fig as Alan does with his figs, except my fig is planted in a large, plastic pot with holes in its side. In late November, I dig up the pot, severing a roots that have grown out into the surrounding ground, and put the plant in my unheated basement. I preserve a couple of feet of top growth on the plant. Problem is that Kadota is very late ripening ? worth it because it?s also very delicious. How is the quality of LSU Purple? Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 4, 2017, at 6:46 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > "In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to > ripen". Which is also my experience with figs out in the open north of NY > City, but as I understand it, in the Bronx and points further south by the > coast, many varieties can ripen fruit after plants have frozen to the > ground the previous winter, If you had them under plastic it figures to > lengthen the season by a zone or 2. > > LSU purple, as I recall, was intentionally selected to be capable of this > throughout the south. If you were growing them in something colder than Z5 > some heat source might be necessary but from Z5 up my hunch is that early > ripening varieties would yield good fruit. > > My fig trees are in Whitcomb bags and I pop them out with a spade every > year in late Nov. and store them in my unheated well house. They are among > my most pest free, reliable cropping fruit. Last season only they and my > blueberries actually did great. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From qazingulaza at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 21:27:53 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 20:27:53 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Jujube In-Reply-To: <8EA17651-C374-485E-A71A-B0FE883B3E87@gmail.com> References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> <8EA17651-C374-485E-A71A-B0FE883B3E87@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the first test project I planted 8 varieties into a 32x70 high tunnel. After 3 years all 8 varieties are still coming back each year. The 2nd year there were no figs set, this year several handful of figs set and Desert King and Green Ischia managed to ripen a few. The figs were pretty much left untended, not selectively pruned so each crown had 20 to 30 shoots. By Sept some of the growth was 9 feet. I'm a little miffed I didn't get an LSU Celeste Improved into the planting since that variety (here in WI) ripens 4-6 weeks earlier than any other of the 65 varieties I have including other cultivars of Celeste. The big caveat always in back of my mind, is that if we have a polar vortex like 2013-13 everything we certainly be dead. ~miEKAL On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to ripen. I think this would be the case even in the longer season of the hoophouse. A lot depends on the size of the hoophouse and how close the figs are to the edges. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at > http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener?s Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:34 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >>>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how is it any different than having the figs outside? I >> >> No heat. In Wisconsin the hoophouse would extend the frostless >> growing season by 6 weeks in each end of the season... Concentrates >> and collects the heat. Reduce wind damage to zero. Protection from >> bird predation. Makes it much easier to keep the roots of the figs >> from freezing. Figs also do fine producing on first year wood so I'm >> focusing on varieties that ripen early. >> >> >> >>>> wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from >> the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming >> off of second year wood. >> >> I think that's pretty much what's happening, the sprouts are coming >> from the top of the stump that's left. it also seems like sprouts are >> coming from below the stump and they don't set fruit. >> >> >>>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are listed at just -10.) >> >> >> this is mostly what I was wondering, maybe I can just keep a few of >> them growing as dwarfs and wrap them the way some people wrap figs... >> >> >>>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >> >> >> with the number of figs that I'm putting in that would be way too much >> work, but I'll probably try it for a tree or two... >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how >>> is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have thought >>> that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have >>> guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. >>> >>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I >>> don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like >>> jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are >>> listed at just -10.) >>> >>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather >>> than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Jay Cutts >>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>> (505)-281-0684 >>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>> >>> On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>> >>>> I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will >>>> all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and >>>> the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder >>>> if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is >>>> set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will >>>> be something like early April - November... >>>> >>>> ~mIEKAL >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Jay, >>>>> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >>>>> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars >>>>> could not be fully mature. >>>>> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature >>>>> in >>>>> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >>>>> Happy Holidays! >>>>> >>>>> Shengrui >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>> >>>>> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>>>>> >>>>>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >>>>>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>>>>> >>>>>> --Henry Fieldseth >>>>>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>>>>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>> Experimenters" >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>>>>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>>>>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>>>>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>>>>> I remember the report >>>>>> saying that they >>>>>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>>>>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>>>>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>>>>> thinks. >>>>>> This is one of the things I >>>>>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>>>>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> Cutts >>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm >>>>>> Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>> On >>>>>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The most >>>>>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>>>>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>>>>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>>>>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>>>>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>>>>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>>>>>> The authors >>>>>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>>>>>> Also, Gordon >>>>>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>>>>> in NM. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Has >>>>>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm in NM >>>>>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>>>>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>>>>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>>>>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>>>>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>>>>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>>>>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>>>>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>>>>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>>>>> Cards >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's >>>>>> LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>>> >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing >>>>>> list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>> >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex >>>>>> mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From qazingulaza at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 22:17:13 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:17:13 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Lee Reich's comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm in love with LSU Purple, it's one of my favorite tasting figs and is a great one for selling at farmer's market. I'll be putting a few of those in my fighouse. ~mIEKAL On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > "In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to > ripen". Which is also my experience with figs out in the open north of NY > City, but as I understand it, in the Bronx and points further south by the > coast, many varieties can ripen fruit after plants have frozen to the > ground the previous winter, If you had them under plastic it figures to > lengthen the season by a zone or 2. > > LSU purple, as I recall, was intentionally selected to be capable of this > throughout the south. If you were growing them in something colder than Z5 > some heat source might be necessary but from Z5 up my hunch is that early > ripening varieties would yield good fruit. > > My fig trees are in Whitcomb bags and I pop them out with a spade every > year in late Nov. and store them in my unheated well house. They are among > my most pest free, reliable cropping fruit. Last season only they and my > blueberries actually did great. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From orders at cuttsreviews.com Thu Jan 5 01:09:58 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 23:09:58 -0700 Subject: [nafex] hoop house In-Reply-To: References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> <8EA17651-C374-485E-A71A-B0FE883B3E87@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99200893-d958-e8ff-896a-79e1a6485995@cuttsreviews.com> I'm curious about the construction of the hoop house. Here in NM at 7000 feet we have winds in the spring that can get to 50 or 60 mph. That will rip plastic to shreds or, if the plastic holds, the wind will destroy the structure. How do you make a structure to withstand that? Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/4/2017 7:27 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > In the first test project I planted 8 varieties into a 32x70 high > tunnel. After 3 years all 8 varieties are still coming back each > year. The 2nd year there were no figs set, this year several handful > of figs set and Desert King and Green Ischia managed to ripen a few. > The figs were pretty much left untended, not selectively pruned so > each crown had 20 to 30 shoots. By Sept some of the growth was 9 > feet. I'm a little miffed I didn't get an LSU Celeste Improved into > the planting since that variety (here in WI) ripens 4-6 weeks earlier > than any other of the 65 varieties I have including other cultivars of > Celeste. The big caveat always in back of my mind, is that if we have > a polar vortex like 2013-13 everything we certainly be dead. > > ~miEKAL > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >> In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late to ripen. I think this would be the case even in the longer season of the hoophouse. A lot depends on the size of the hoophouse and how close the figs are to the edges. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at >> http://www.leereich.com/blog >> http://leereich.com >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener?s Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:34 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> >>>>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how is it any different than having the figs outside? I >>> No heat. In Wisconsin the hoophouse would extend the frostless >>> growing season by 6 weeks in each end of the season... Concentrates >>> and collects the heat. Reduce wind damage to zero. Protection from >>> bird predation. Makes it much easier to keep the roots of the figs >>> from freezing. Figs also do fine producing on first year wood so I'm >>> focusing on varieties that ripen early. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from >>> the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming >>> off of second year wood. >>> >>> I think that's pretty much what's happening, the sprouts are coming >>> from the top of the stump that's left. it also seems like sprouts are >>> coming from below the stump and they don't set fruit. >>> >>> >>>>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are listed at just -10.) >>> >>> this is mostly what I was wondering, maybe I can just keep a few of >>> them growing as dwarfs and wrap them the way some people wrap figs... >>> >>> >>>>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >>> >>> with the number of figs that I'm putting in that would be way too much >>> work, but I'll probably try it for a tree or two... >>> >>> ~mIEKAL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, how >>>> is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have thought >>>> that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have >>>> guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. >>>> >>>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I >>>> don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like >>>> jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are >>>> listed at just -10.) >>>> >>>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, rather >>>> than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Jay Cutts >>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>> >>>> On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>>> I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will >>>>> all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and >>>>> the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder >>>>> if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is >>>>> set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will >>>>> be something like early April - November... >>>>> >>>>> ~mIEKAL >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jay, >>>>>> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >>>>>> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most cultivars >>>>>> could not be fully mature. >>>>>> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low temperature >>>>>> in >>>>>> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >>>>>> Happy Holidays! >>>>>> >>>>>> Shengrui >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>>>>>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable Ag >>>>>>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Henry Fieldseth >>>>>>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>>>>>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>> Experimenters" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>>>>>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>>>>>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>>>>>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>>>>>> I remember the report >>>>>>> saying that they >>>>>>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>>>>>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>>>>>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>>>>>> thinks. >>>>>>> This is one of the things I >>>>>>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>>>>>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> Cutts >>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm >>>>>>> Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> The most >>>>>>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>>>>>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>>>>>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>>>>>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>>>>>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>>>>>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>>>>>>> The authors >>>>>>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>>>>>>> Also, Gordon >>>>>>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>>>>>> in NM. >>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Has >>>>>>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>>>>>>>> I'm in NM >>>>>>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>>>>>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>>>>>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>>>>>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>>>>>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>>>>>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>>>>>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>>>>>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>>>>>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>>>>>> Cards >>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's >>>>>>> LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex mailing >>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From alandhaigh at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 05:27:19 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 05:27:19 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs Message-ID: There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their selections. From growyourown at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 08:12:15 2017 From: growyourown at earthlink.net (mark wessel) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:12:15 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have a Name for this variety? Is it available on the market? > On Jan 5, 2017, at 5:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy > that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one > and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU > purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy > Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their > selections. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From pxbacher at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 08:27:49 2017 From: pxbacher at gmail.com (Peter Chrisbacher) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:27:49 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha Alan I suspect you just piqued the interest of at least a few fig hoarders (myself included) ;) Please let us know name/source, or if you would be willing to spare a cutting or two. -Pete Pete Chrisbacher On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:12 AM, mark wessel wrote: > Do you have a Name for this variety? Is it available on the market? > > > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 5:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > > > There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy > > that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one > > and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU > > purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy > > Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their > > selections. > > __________________ > > nafex mailing list > > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From pxbacher at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 08:42:06 2017 From: pxbacher at gmail.com (Peter Chrisbacher) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:42:06 -0500 Subject: [nafex] In-ground Containerized Figs Message-ID: This thread has taken an interesting turn (for me!). Has anyone tried/compared various containers and their relative suitability and EASE for annual planting of larger "in-ground containerized" temperature-sensitive plants? My figs remain in fairly large pots above ground all year (overwintered in an attached garage after hardening off). But keeping them in pots is challenging due to their significant moisture requirements; I've considered a drip system but wasn't ready to make the commitment. Does "planting" them in a pot or other container/bag solve the watering issue? Given figs' prolific rooting, have you seen improved fruiting/harvest/growth/etc. using this method? How difficult is it to dig them back up in the fall? Any ideas for making this easier (e.g. a thin layer of sand or perlite fill around the pot?). I'd love to hear more about others' experience and experiments with this "in-ground containerized" approach. -Pete Back in Kennett Square PA 6b From rosholdt at erols.com Thu Jan 5 09:50:22 2017 From: rosholdt at erols.com (Rosholdt) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:50:22 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424c1523-071d-3728-95a6-bbe0c52c1efd@erols.com> Alan: Yeah! Me too! cutting for me, too? We put plant, root ball, and all in my unheated barn until spring, but am on the lookout for early varieties. While we are on the subject I wonder what size in ground container is? Our huge above ground containers are too much to dig up without a backhoe. Barbara Rosholdt rosholdt at erols.com Z7a Central VA (they keep telling me it's 6, but I'm ignoring them) -------------------------------------------------- On 1/5/2017 8:42 AM, nafex-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote: Ha Alan I suspect you just piqued the interest of at least a few fig hoarders (myself included) Please let us know name/source, or if you would be willing to spare a cutting or two. -Pete Pete Chrisbacher On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:12 AM, mark wessel wrote: Do you have a Name for this variety? Is it available on the market? On Jan 5, 2017, at 5:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their selections. __________________ From qazingulaza at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:22:20 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:22:20 -0600 Subject: [nafex] hoop house In-Reply-To: <99200893-d958-e8ff-896a-79e1a6485995@cuttsreviews.com> References: <617937166.3000149.1482969960672.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <617937166.3000149.1482969960672@mail.yahoo.com> <6879c9db-4c5f-3533-b35b-39ead2728ccb@cuttsreviews.com> <8EA17651-C374-485E-A71A-B0FE883B3E87@gmail.com> <99200893-d958-e8ff-896a-79e1a6485995@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: My hoop house is on a super windy site, we only get 60mph rarely but 20-30 mph is extremely common. I chose a model that had extra heavy steel and w-bracing on the individual ribs. It has one layer of 6mil plastic which with luck will last for 3-4 years. I'm hoping to put rigid plastic on the ends which will stiffen it up even more. And with the NRCS hoophouse program the whole hoophouse was paid for including the labor to install. I'm posting a photo, not sure if it will come thru. ~mIEKAL On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Jay Cutts wrote: > I'm curious about the construction of the hoop house. Here in NM at 7000 > feet we have winds in the spring that can get to 50 or 60 mph. That will rip > plastic to shreds or, if the plastic holds, the wind will destroy the > structure. > > How do you make a structure to withstand that? > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > On 1/4/2017 7:27 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> In the first test project I planted 8 varieties into a 32x70 high >> tunnel. After 3 years all 8 varieties are still coming back each >> year. The 2nd year there were no figs set, this year several handful >> of figs set and Desert King and Green Ischia managed to ripen a few. >> The figs were pretty much left untended, not selectively pruned so >> each crown had 20 to 30 shoots. By Sept some of the growth was 9 >> feet. I'm a little miffed I didn't get an LSU Celeste Improved into >> the planting since that variety (here in WI) ripens 4-6 weeks earlier >> than any other of the 65 varieties I have including other cultivars of >> Celeste. The big caveat always in back of my mind, is that if we have >> a polar vortex like 2013-13 everything we certainly be dead. >> >> ~miEKAL >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> >>> In my experience, figs that die to ground level set fruit much too late >>> to ripen. I think this would be the case even in the longer season of the >>> hoophouse. A lot depends on the size of the hoophouse and how close the figs >>> are to the edges. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> Come visit my farmden at >>> http://www.leereich.com/blog >>> http://leereich.com >>> >>> Books by Lee Reich: >>> A Northeast Gardener?s Year >>> The Pruning Book >>> Weedless Gardening >>> Uncommon Fruits for every Garden >>> Landscaping with Fruit >>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>> >>>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:34 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, >>>>>> how is it any different than having the figs outside? I >>>> >>>> No heat. In Wisconsin the hoophouse would extend the frostless >>>> growing season by 6 weeks in each end of the season... Concentrates >>>> and collects the heat. Reduce wind damage to zero. Protection from >>>> bird predation. Makes it much easier to keep the roots of the figs >>>> from freezing. Figs also do fine producing on first year wood so I'm >>>> focusing on varieties that ripen early. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wouldn't have thought that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from >>>> >>>> the ground. I would have guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming >>>> off of second year wood. >>>> >>>> I think that's pretty much what's happening, the sprouts are coming >>>> from the top of the stump that's left. it also seems like sprouts are >>>> coming from below the stump and they don't set fruit. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. >>>>>> I don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound like >>>>>> jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some are >>>>>> listed at just -10.) >>>> >>>> >>>> this is mostly what I was wondering, maybe I can just keep a few of >>>> them growing as dwarfs and wrap them the way some people wrap figs... >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, >>>>>> rather than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >>>> >>>> >>>> with the number of figs that I'm putting in that would be way too much >>>> work, but I'll probably try it for a tree or two... >>>> >>>> ~mIEKAL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Jay Cutts >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Interesting concept. Do you provide any heat in the hoophouse? If not, >>>>> how >>>>> is it any different than having the figs outside? I wouldn't have >>>>> thought >>>>> that figs would set fruit on new sprouts from the ground. I would have >>>>> guessed they'd only fruit on new wood coming off of second year wood. >>>>> >>>>> Of course figs are naturally bushy, whereas jujubes seem to be trees. I >>>>> don't know how they would do being cut to the ground. It does sound >>>>> like >>>>> jujubes can survive down to -28 (probably depending on variety, as some >>>>> are >>>>> listed at just -10.) >>>>> >>>>> Traditionally people bend the fig trees to the ground and cover them, >>>>> rather >>>>> than cut them to the ground. Could you do that in your hoophouse? >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>> >>>>> On 1/3/2017 8:28 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I've put up a hoophouse to grow figs in z4 Wisconsin. The figs will >>>>>> all be cut back to the ground each year, covered with bales of hay and >>>>>> the varieties chosen that will ripen fruit the quickest... I wonder >>>>>> if this technique would work for jujubes, since you say the fruit is >>>>>> set on new growth. I imagine the season length in the greenhouse will >>>>>> be something like early April - November... >>>>>> >>>>>> ~mIEKAL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is the (very quick) reply from Dr. Shengrui Yao: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jay, >>>>>>> Winter hardiness is one thing and the other issue is the frost free >>>>>>> days-length of growing season. If you season is too short, most >>>>>>> cultivars >>>>>>> could not be fully mature. >>>>>>> To me, the frost free days is more critical than winter low >>>>>>> temperature >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> your area. But you can get 1-2 cultivars and try it. >>>>>>> Happy Holidays! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shengrui >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/28/2016 5:06 PM, Henry via nafex wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How long is the growing season at 7000 feet in New Mexico? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Any chance of learning which cultivars survived at the Sustainable >>>>>>>> Ag >>>>>>>> Science Center in Alcalde? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Henry Fieldseth >>>>>>>> Minneapolis, MN, Zone 4 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> On Wed, 12/28/16, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Jujube >>>>>>>> To: "mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>>> Experimenters" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 4:14 PM >>>>>>>> Thanks, Mark. I had seen >>>>>>>> the original research report. I thought Alcalde >>>>>>>> was more like 5000 but could be wrong. I think >>>>>>>> I remember the report >>>>>>>> saying that they >>>>>>>> weren't getting fruit at Alcalde. >>>>>>>> In any case you inspired me to write directly >>>>>>>> to Dr. Yao to see what she >>>>>>>> thinks. >>>>>>>> This is one of the things I >>>>>>>> appreciate about this list so much. Great >>>>>>>> expertise and enthusiasm among you all!! >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> Cutts >>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm >>>>>>>> Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> 12/28/2016 2:52 PM, mark wessel wrote: >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The most >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> recent Hort Science has an article ?Jujube, an Alternative >>>>>>>> Fruit crop for the Southwestern US?. The author is from >>>>>>>> New Mexico State. Evidently they are trialing over 50 >>>>>>>> cultivars at the Sustainable Ag Science Center in Alcalde. >>>>>>>> It is at least 5700 ft elevation. They referenced a >>>>>>>> hardiness to -30C or -22F. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The authors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> name is Shengrui Yao. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, Gordon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tooley of Tooleys trees may have some insight into hardiness >>>>>>>> in NM. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jay Cutts >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Has >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> anyone successfully grown jujube in zone 5 or colder? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm in NM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> at 7000 feet. There are a number of trees that I've >>>>>>>> tried here that ought to grow in even colder climates but >>>>>>>> which get their tops killed in the winter. I think it's >>>>>>>> a combination of temperature (record lows have been -25), >>>>>>>> wind, strong sun, dryness, thaw and freeze. The trees that >>>>>>>> have topped-killed include Illinois Everbearing mulberry, >>>>>>>> American persimmon, and walnuts. The American persimmons >>>>>>>> eventually get tough enough growth to survive, but any >>>>>>>> grafted plants lose the grafted portion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> concerned that the tops of jujubes would not make it. Any >>>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cards >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nafex mailing >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex >>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: greenhouse-construction2.png Type: image/png Size: 4438909 bytes Desc: not available URL: From qazingulaza at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:24:53 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:24:53 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The earliest ripening fig I was talking about was LSU Celeste Improved. LSU Purple was not an early ripener for me, nor is Hardy Chicago... ~mIEKAL On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy > that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one > and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU > purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy > Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their > selections. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From qazingulaza at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:27:16 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 09:27:16 -0600 Subject: [nafex] In-ground Containerized Figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dig some of my container figs into the ground, but not all the way, maybe 6-9" which is enough for the figs to set roots into the ground thru the drainage holes. It drastically reduces watering requirements, especially on really hot days but of course it's a big of work to prune the roots back and get them out of the ground in the fall. ~mIEKAL On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:42 AM, Peter Chrisbacher wrote: > This thread has taken an interesting turn (for me!). > > Has anyone tried/compared various containers and their relative suitability > and EASE for annual planting of larger "in-ground containerized" > temperature-sensitive plants? > > My figs remain in fairly large pots above ground all year (overwintered in > an attached garage after hardening off). But keeping them in pots is > challenging due to their significant moisture requirements; I've considered > a drip system but wasn't ready to make the commitment. Does "planting" > them in a pot or other container/bag solve the watering issue? Given figs' > prolific rooting, have you seen improved fruiting/harvest/growth/etc. using > this method? How difficult is it to dig them back up in the fall? Any > ideas for making this easier (e.g. a thin layer of sand or perlite fill > around the pot?). > > I'd love to hear more about others' experience and experiments with this > "in-ground containerized" approach. > > -Pete > Back in Kennett Square PA 6b > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From ehilborn at mebtel.net Thu Jan 5 11:13:15 2017 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:13:15 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> My LSU Gold fruits earlier than Chicago Hardy here in zone 7a. Although it is hardy for me here, it was marketed as less cold tolerant and better for the deep south. However, I have not observed any enhanced cold tenderness for LSU Gold at my site compared to my other varieties (Celeste, Bullard Celeste type, Brown Turkey, Violet de Bordeaux, Chicago Hardy, Petite Negri, Lattarulla). Betsy Hilborn 7a central NC On 1/5/2017 10:24 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > The earliest ripening fig I was talking about was LSU Celeste > Improved. LSU Purple was not an early ripener for me, nor is Hardy > Chicago... > > ~mIEKAL > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: >> There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy >> that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one >> and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU >> purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy >> Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their >> selections. >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From leeareich at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 11:23:14 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:23:14 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> References: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> Message-ID: <2206475F-A238-4FA4-8C5C-2E1A2E699D1C@gmail.com> I?ve grown Danny?s Delight fig, which was also allegedly cold hardy. Here in Zone 5, it was cold hardy ? the roots, that is, just like many other figs. The tops died back, then grew about 10 feet high by the end of the season, but never ripened a fruit. Celeste, in my greenhouse or in a pot, never sets hardly any fruit for me. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 5, 2017, at 11:13 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote: > > My LSU Gold fruits earlier than Chicago Hardy here in zone 7a. Although it is hardy for me here, it was marketed as less cold tolerant and better for the deep south. > > However, I have not observed any enhanced cold tenderness for LSU Gold at my site compared to my other varieties (Celeste, Bullard Celeste type, Brown Turkey, Violet de Bordeaux, Chicago Hardy, Petite Negri, Lattarulla). > > Betsy Hilborn > 7a central NC > > On 1/5/2017 10:24 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> The earliest ripening fig I was talking about was LSU Celeste >> Improved. LSU Purple was not an early ripener for me, nor is Hardy >> Chicago... >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: >>> There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via Italy >>> that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have one >>> and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU >>> purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as Hardy >>> Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their >>> selections. >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From pxbacher at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 11:39:39 2017 From: pxbacher at gmail.com (Peter Chrisbacher) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:39:39 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: <2206475F-A238-4FA4-8C5C-2E1A2E699D1C@gmail.com> References: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> <2206475F-A238-4FA4-8C5C-2E1A2E699D1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had a potted Celeste when I lived in Royersford PA zone 6b that I gave a chance to bear over several seasons. I may have gotten *some* fruit, but if so (and I don't remember getting any) not much. If I recall correctly, it was fruiting modestly, but not maturing its fruit. Around the end of season 3 it was "accidentally" not brought in over winter which freed up its pot for something new. -Pete Kennett Square PA 6b Pete Chrisbacher On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > I?ve grown Danny?s Delight fig, which was also allegedly cold hardy. Here > in Zone 5, it was cold hardy ? the roots, that is, just like many other > figs. The tops died back, then grew about 10 feet high by the end of the > season, but never ripened a fruit. > > Celeste, in my greenhouse or in a pot, never sets hardly any fruit for me. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at > http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener?s Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 11:13 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn > wrote: > > > > My LSU Gold fruits earlier than Chicago Hardy here in zone 7a. Although > it is hardy for me here, it was marketed as less cold tolerant and better > for the deep south. > > > > However, I have not observed any enhanced cold tenderness for LSU Gold > at my site compared to my other varieties (Celeste, Bullard Celeste type, > Brown Turkey, Violet de Bordeaux, Chicago Hardy, Petite Negri, Lattarulla). > > > > Betsy Hilborn > > 7a central NC > > > > On 1/5/2017 10:24 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >> The earliest ripening fig I was talking about was LSU Celeste > >> Improved. LSU Purple was not an early ripener for me, nor is Hardy > >> Chicago... > >> > >> ~mIEKAL > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Alan Haigh > wrote: > >>> There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via > Italy > >>> that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have > one > >>> and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU > >>> purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as > Hardy > >>> Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their > >>> selections. > >>> __________________ > >>> nafex mailing list > >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > > > __________________ > > nafex mailing list > > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From qazingulaza at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 12:25:01 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:25:01 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> <2206475F-A238-4FA4-8C5C-2E1A2E699D1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I put my figs outdoors around May 15. LSU Celeste Improved has its first ripe figs about August 15. Other varieties of Celeste, and figs like Hardy Chicago, Stella, Atreano, Conadria, Black Spanish, Armenian, other LSU varieties all start producing ripe fruit in late September. It'd be fun to track down what Celeste was crossed with to make the LSU release. ~mIEKAL On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Peter Chrisbacher wrote: > I had a potted Celeste when I lived in Royersford PA zone 6b that I gave a > chance to bear over several seasons. I may have gotten *some* fruit, but if > so (and I don't remember getting any) not much. If I recall correctly, it > was fruiting modestly, but not maturing its fruit. Around the end of season > 3 it was "accidentally" not brought in over winter which freed up its pot > for something new. > > -Pete > Kennett Square PA 6b > > > Pete Chrisbacher > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > >> I?ve grown Danny?s Delight fig, which was also allegedly cold hardy. Here >> in Zone 5, it was cold hardy ? the roots, that is, just like many other >> figs. The tops died back, then grew about 10 feet high by the end of the >> season, but never ripened a fruit. >> >> Celeste, in my greenhouse or in a pot, never sets hardly any fruit for me. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at >> http://www.leereich.com/blog >> http://leereich.com >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener?s Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >> > On Jan 5, 2017, at 11:13 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn >> wrote: >> > >> > My LSU Gold fruits earlier than Chicago Hardy here in zone 7a. Although >> it is hardy for me here, it was marketed as less cold tolerant and better >> for the deep south. >> > >> > However, I have not observed any enhanced cold tenderness for LSU Gold >> at my site compared to my other varieties (Celeste, Bullard Celeste type, >> Brown Turkey, Violet de Bordeaux, Chicago Hardy, Petite Negri, Lattarulla). >> > >> > Betsy Hilborn >> > 7a central NC >> > >> > On 1/5/2017 10:24 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> The earliest ripening fig I was talking about was LSU Celeste >> >> Improved. LSU Purple was not an early ripener for me, nor is Hardy >> >> Chicago... >> >> >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Alan Haigh >> wrote: >> >>> There is at least a couple of varieties brought to this country via >> Italy >> >>> that are grown in the Bronx and ripen as early as LSU Purple. I have >> one >> >>> and it is somewhat larger and much more prolific for me than either LSU >> >>> purple or Hardy Chicago. My LSU Purple ripens at the same time as >> Hardy >> >>> Chicago as well, so maybe you are talking about another one of their >> >>> selections. >> >>> __________________ >> >>> nafex mailing list >> >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > >> > __________________ >> > nafex mailing list >> > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From ehilborn at mebtel.net Thu Jan 5 12:48:32 2017 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 12:48:32 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Early figs In-Reply-To: References: <5e1280c0-f4ae-c758-b129-9c7eb64f8b68@mebtel.net> <2206475F-A238-4FA4-8C5C-2E1A2E699D1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2268d39d-4da2-43fc-dbbd-9d05f0dd200c@mebtel.net> I did notice that my Celeste took years (at least 4) to start bearing much fruit regularly. Now it is a very reliable cropper in most weather (wet or dry) but it is not early ripening. On 1/5/2017 11:39 AM, Peter Chrisbacher wrote: > I had a potted Celeste when I lived in Royersford PA zone 6b that I gave a > chance to bear over several seasons. I may have gotten *some* fruit, but if > so (and I don't remember getting any) not much. If I recall correctly, it > was fruiting modestly, but not maturing its fruit. Around the end of season > 3 it was "accidentally" not brought in over winter which freed up its pot > for something new. > > -Pete > Kennett Square PA 6b > > > Pete Chrisbacher > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > >> I?ve grown Danny?s Delight fig, which was also allegedly cold hardy. Here >> in Zone 5, it was cold hardy ? the roots, that is, just like many other >> figs. The tops died back, then grew about 10 feet high by the end of the >> season, but never ripened a fruit. >> >> Celeste, in my greenhouse or in a pot, never sets hardly any fruit for me. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at >> http://www.leereich.com/blog >> http://leereich.com >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener?s Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> From alandhaigh at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 16:50:32 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 16:50:32 -0500 Subject: [nafex] name of fig variety Message-ID: Nope, it is just one of the NYC figs brought here from Italy. I got it from a cutting of a neighbor who got it from someone who got it from someone.... From alandhaigh at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 16:53:11 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 16:53:11 -0500 Subject: [nafex] fig cuttings Message-ID: Unless I'm doing an exchange with someone that has something I want I don't sent out cuttings unless I receive a stamped, self-addressed envelope. My small business compresses time for me. alandhaigh at gmail.com From lpittman at murraystate.edu Fri Jan 6 11:22:35 2017 From: lpittman at murraystate.edu (Dr. Lucky Pittman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 10:22:35 -0600 Subject: [nafex] In-ground Containerized Figs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009b01d26839$17ae2900$470a7b00$@murraystate.edu> I'll have to move mine this spring - shoved them up against the house for winter about 3 years ago, blocked 'em in with bales of straw and mulched with wood chips. Never got around to moving them, come spring, and there they've sat, ever since. Absolutely firmly rooted into the ground there - and the bales of straw and wood chips are long gone - but they grew 10+ ft this summer, set lots of fruit, and managed to ripen a goodly portion of it. Previously, I'd been sticking them in the crawlspace underneath our sunroom - but with in-floor radiant heat (above the crawlspace), I think it was too warm under there - they often broke dormancy and pushed pale, etiolated shoots. I wonder about 'pot-in-pot' planting for those of us in climes where they tend to freeze back... but as rapidly as figs root out , I wonder if they'd root out through the in-ground outer pot, and be extremely tough to extricate for winter Lucky -----Original Message----- From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Peter Chrisbacher Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 7:42 AM To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters Subject: Re: [nafex] In-ground Containerized Figs This thread has taken an interesting turn (for me!). Has anyone tried/compared various containers and their relative suitability and EASE for annual planting of larger "in-ground containerized" temperature-sensitive plants? My figs remain in fairly large pots above ground all year (overwintered in an attached garage after hardening off). But keeping them in pots is challenging due to their significant moisture requirements; I've considered a drip system but wasn't ready to make the commitment. Does "planting" them in a pot or other container/bag solve the watering issue? Given figs' prolific rooting, have you seen improved fruiting/harvest/growth/etc. using this method? How difficult is it to dig them back up in the fall? Any ideas for making this easier (e.g. a thin layer of sand or perlite fill around the pot?). I'd love to hear more about others' experience and experiments with this "in-ground containerized" approach. -Pete Back in Kennett Square PA 6b __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 13:51:53 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (sc) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:51:53 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table Message-ID: Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. ?One I will check out next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". ? Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay fragipan a couple of feet down. A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples.? ?However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and apricot. ? In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the projected?orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of top soil/sand.? On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. ? I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? It might not be the right site. ?Then there's the issue of pH. ?I'd??Would something like this work? ? Thank you,Steve NJ From organic87 at frontiernet.net Fri Jan 6 14:20:04 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 14:20:04 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know whether your proposal would eventually provide suitable soil for the trees in question, even after the time needed for all that "non-valuable" lumber to break down. But I do have a couple of other comments: Do you have the option of continuing your search until you find a place that meets whatever your other criteria are, and that doesn't need major work done before you can plant? If so, I'd think that would make more sense. Whatever you buy: make sure to check out the available water supply, both for quality and quantity. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale On Jan 6, 2017, at 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". > Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay fragipan a couple of feet down. > A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. > Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). > My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. > However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and apricot. > In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of top soil/sand. > On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. > I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? > It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd Would something like this work? > > Thank you,Steve NJ > > From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 16:25:57 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 16:25:57 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <267066e6-2b38-4894-5ca4-7b917d055974@gmail.com> On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". > Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay fragipan a couple of feet down. > A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. > Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). > My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. > However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and apricot. > In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of top soil/sand. > On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. > I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? > It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd Would something like this work? Hi Steve, That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about. The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree. If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should give a strong consideration. Jerry From filtertitle at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 00:08:12 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 00:08:12 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: <267066e6-2b38-4894-5ca4-7b917d055974@gmail.com> References: <267066e6-2b38-4894-5ca4-7b917d055974@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the response, Mr. Lehman. I just discovered that the seasonally high water table is said to be "24 to 36" under the soil surface, as opposed to 18" to 30", which is quite a bit more promising. The soil is described as stony, course, sandy, deep and well-drained, and moderately retentive of moisture. This is good. It's described as 'poor agriculture' soil-- I"m pretty sure this is for the fact that it's so stony; but since I'm intending to grow perennial fruit trees, this doesn't bother me. What concerns me a bit is that the upper inches are described as acidic and the lower inches of the top soil as well as the subsoil is described as having a reaction which is 'very acidic'. I hope that I won't have to forgo thoughts of planting things like apricot (on Manchurian rootstock) and Cornelian-cherry. I don't know if getting truckloads of crushed (gravel size) limestone would help; that I could back the gravel and even larger pieces into the ground around the roots of these calcium-dependent crops. And I'd definitely compost trees around them to neutralize pH; I've read the same. Very interesting tidbit re: pH and paw paw/Ukraine. It will be about 45 acres, but I figure dedicating 3 acres of the 45 to calcium-dependent crops might be manageable. Thank you very much, Steve On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jerry Lehman wrote: > On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > >> Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out >> next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". >> Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay >> fragipan a couple of feet down. >> A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during >> is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. >> Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). >> My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. >> americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. >> However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and >> apricot. >> In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to >> clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the >> projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on >> 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of >> top soil/sand. >> On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. >> I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a >> seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? >> It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd >> Would something like this work? >> > Hi Steve, > > That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and > I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about. > The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially > overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees > compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH > and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But > when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil > with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree. > > If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should > give a strong consideration. > > Jerry > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From filtertitle at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 00:18:20 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 00:18:20 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rivka, I definitely would agree -- if it turns out that there is too much I need to do in order to get things right; however, so far, the seasonally water table being 24" to 36" below the ground surface might not be such a big problem. What might cause me to pass this up is if I thought I'd be better off with a soil which is a little bit closer to neutral. I'm in no rush, but don't want to pass up a good thing; nice ponds and streams coursing thought the property; deep soils without loosing out on the presence of rocky outcroppings, which I find Ideal. Usually, in my area, rocky outcroppings mean a very shallow soil until you hit bedrock; in this case, you get the rock without having to have this be the case.. glacial till. I want to grow rare ferns and calcium-dependent perennials like purple milkweed and Indian (scarlet) paint-brush. I don't know if liming a field yearly is something I am interested in doing; I'm interested in sustainable permaculture and nature-scaping. I would, however, be willing to add rock and gravel (calcareous -- calcium & magnesium-rich dolomite, for instance) to the landscape if this would confer a persistent alteration to the soil. For instance, bring in a few truck loads of dolomite gravel and dump it on a small field, spread it out, and later seed it with Indian paint-brush (Castilleja coccinea). Anyone think this would work, long-term? Thank you, Steve (NJ) On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Road's End Farm wrote: > I don't know whether your proposal would eventually provide suitable soil > for the trees in question, even after the time needed for all that > "non-valuable" lumber to break down. But I do have a couple of other > comments: > > Do you have the option of continuing your search until you find a place > that meets whatever your other criteria are, and that doesn't need major > work done before you can plant? If so, I'd think that would make more sense. > > Whatever you buy: make sure to check out the available water supply, both > for quality and quantity. > > > -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think > Fresh-market organic produce, small scale > > > > On Jan 6, 2017, at 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > > > Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out > next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". > > Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay > fragipan a couple of feet down. > > A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during > is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. > > Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). > > My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. > americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. > > However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and > apricot. > > In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was > to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the > projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on > 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of > top soil/sand. > > On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. > > I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a > seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? > > It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd > Would something like this work? > > > > Thank you,Steve NJ > > > > > > > > > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 08:34:03 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 08:34:03 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/7/2017 12:18 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > I want to grow rare ferns and calcium-dependent perennials like purple milkweed and Indian (scarlet) paint-brush. I don't know if liming a field > yearly is something I am interested in doing; I'm interested in sustainable permaculture and nature-scaping. I would, however, be willing to add rock > and gravel (calcareous -- calcium & magnesium-rich dolomite, for instance) to the landscape if this would confer a persistent alteration to the soil. > For instance, bring in a few truck loads of dolomite gravel and dump it on a small field, spread it out, and later seed it with Indian paint-brush > (Castilleja coccinea). Anyone think this would work, long-term? Hi Steve, I tend to agree with Rivka the price per acre may be a bargain but you probably are better off looking for something more pH neutral. In one of your emails you said planting 3 acres which isn't very much ground and you soon would be expanding that. Then you would be trying to control the pH on more acreage. However the trade-off for the terrain (outcropping) and wooded area they make it worth your while. Based on conditions in this area, ground agricultural limestone is something they apply every few years and to bring up the acidity is something you would be doing continually. It wouldn't be a one-time treatment. Jerry PS. It's not fun digging in soil with stones. From ehilborn at mebtel.net Sat Jan 7 08:58:03 2017 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 08:58:03 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: <267066e6-2b38-4894-5ca4-7b917d055974@gmail.com> Message-ID: <696c8150-2fa9-7109-a256-af4b2975188c@mebtel.net> Exciting project Steve! I have a question and 2 comments that I will pass on. The question relates to your comment about Cornelian Cherry. I also have an acidic soil (6.0) but did not adjust the pH when I planted my trees due to the published pH tolerance of these plants as low as 5.0. What am I missing? Do they thrive in alkaline soils and just tolerate acidic soils? The comment relates to adding CaCo3 to land for long term pH management. Historically, this was done deliberately with oyster shells applied to agricultural fields in colonial America (one can still view shell fragments in those fields still in use) and inadvertently from discarded shells along the southeastern US coast in the form of calcareous middens. I was warned that once the material is applied, it is hard to pull it back if you applied too much. How do calculate to how much to apply? Is the application dependent upon total rainfall? Does rain pH matter? Does rate of rainfall matter? Just thoughts. The last comment is that my understanding is that chestnuts do best in acidic soils. I believe that I have killed a couple of trees by placing them in a lime rich area. Betsy Hilborn On 1/7/2017 12:08 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > Thank you for the response, Mr. Lehman. I just discovered that the > seasonally high water table is said to be "24 to 36" under the soil > surface, as opposed to 18" to 30", which is quite a bit more promising. > The soil is described as stony, course, sandy, deep and well-drained, and > moderately retentive of moisture. This is good. It's described as 'poor > agriculture' soil-- I"m pretty sure this is for the fact that it's so > stony; but since I'm intending to grow perennial fruit trees, this doesn't > bother me. What concerns me a bit is that the upper inches are described > as acidic and the lower inches of the top soil as well as the subsoil is > described as having a reaction which is 'very acidic'. I hope that I won't > have to forgo thoughts of planting things like apricot (on Manchurian > rootstock) and Cornelian-cherry. I don't know if getting truckloads of > crushed (gravel size) limestone would help; that I could back the gravel > and even larger pieces into the ground around the roots of these > calcium-dependent crops. And I'd definitely compost trees around them to > neutralize pH; I've read the same. Very interesting tidbit re: pH and paw > paw/Ukraine. > > It will be about 45 acres, but I figure dedicating 3 acres of the 45 to > calcium-dependent crops might be manageable. > > Thank you very much, > Steve > > On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jerry Lehman wrote: > >> On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote: >> >>> Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out >>> next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". >>> Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay >>> fragipan a couple of feet down. >>> A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during >>> is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. >>> Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). >>> My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. >>> americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. >>> However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and >>> apricot. >>> In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to >>> clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the >>> projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on >>> 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of >>> top soil/sand. >>> On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. >>> I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a >>> seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? >>> It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd >>> Would something like this work? >>> >> Hi Steve, >> >> That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and >> I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about. >> The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially >> overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees >> compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH >> and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But >> when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil >> with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree. >> >> If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should >> give a strong consideration. >> >> Jerry >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From leeareich at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 09:47:29 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 09:47:29 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: <696c8150-2fa9-7109-a256-af4b2975188c@mebtel.net> References: <267066e6-2b38-4894-5ca4-7b917d055974@gmail.com> <696c8150-2fa9-7109-a256-af4b2975188c@mebtel.net> Message-ID: Jerry is right; adding limestone to adjust the pH higher is not a one-time proposition. It must be added on a regular basis. As far as the amount to add, generally, to change a soil one pH unit requires, per hundred square feet, 2-10 pounds of limestone, the lower values on sandy soils and the higher values on clay soils. To be more precise about how much to add, you have to take into account the kind of liming material (besides limestone, the most common, there?s also also oyster shells, quicklime, hydrated lime, or dolomite) and the fineness of the liming material. There are tables where you can look up the liming equivalent of any of these materials. Over time, use of abundant organic materials, such as organic mulches and composts, allow for more flexibility in pH. To me, the most important consideration for agricultural land is water drainage. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 7, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote: > > Exciting project Steve! > > I have a question and 2 comments that I will pass on. > > The question relates to your comment about Cornelian Cherry. I also have an acidic soil (6.0) but did not adjust the pH when I planted my trees due to the published pH tolerance of these plants as low as 5.0. What am I missing? Do they thrive in alkaline soils and just tolerate acidic soils? > > The comment relates to adding CaCo3 to land for long term pH management. Historically, this was done deliberately with oyster shells applied to agricultural fields in colonial America (one can still view shell fragments in those fields still in use) and inadvertently from discarded shells along the southeastern US coast in the form of calcareous middens. > > I was warned that once the material is applied, it is hard to pull it back if you applied too much. How do calculate to how much to apply? Is the application dependent upon total rainfall? Does rain pH matter? Does rate of rainfall matter? Just thoughts. > > The last comment is that my understanding is that chestnuts do best in acidic soils. I believe that I have killed a couple of trees by placing them in a lime rich area. > > Betsy Hilborn > > On 1/7/2017 12:08 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: >> Thank you for the response, Mr. Lehman. I just discovered that the >> seasonally high water table is said to be "24 to 36" under the soil >> surface, as opposed to 18" to 30", which is quite a bit more promising. >> The soil is described as stony, course, sandy, deep and well-drained, and >> moderately retentive of moisture. This is good. It's described as 'poor >> agriculture' soil-- I"m pretty sure this is for the fact that it's so >> stony; but since I'm intending to grow perennial fruit trees, this doesn't >> bother me. What concerns me a bit is that the upper inches are described >> as acidic and the lower inches of the top soil as well as the subsoil is >> described as having a reaction which is 'very acidic'. I hope that I won't >> have to forgo thoughts of planting things like apricot (on Manchurian >> rootstock) and Cornelian-cherry. I don't know if getting truckloads of >> crushed (gravel size) limestone would help; that I could back the gravel >> and even larger pieces into the ground around the roots of these >> calcium-dependent crops. And I'd definitely compost trees around them to >> neutralize pH; I've read the same. Very interesting tidbit re: pH and paw >> paw/Ukraine. >> >> It will be about 45 acres, but I figure dedicating 3 acres of the 45 to >> calcium-dependent crops might be manageable. >> >> Thank you very much, >> Steve >> >> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jerry Lehman wrote: >> >>> On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out >>>> next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". >>>> Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay >>>> fragipan a couple of feet down. >>>> A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during >>>> is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. >>>> Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). >>>> My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. >>>> americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. >>>> However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and >>>> apricot. >>>> In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to >>>> clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the >>>> projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on >>>> 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of >>>> top soil/sand. >>>> On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. >>>> I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a >>>> seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? >>>> It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd >>>> Would something like this work? >>>> >>> Hi Steve, >>> >>> That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and >>> I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about. >>> The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially >>> overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees >>> compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH >>> and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But >>> when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil >>> with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree. >>> >>> If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should >>> give a strong consideration. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From organic87 at frontiernet.net Sat Jan 7 11:20:43 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:20:43 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59347C14-911E-499E-81DA-41513BEB06BF@frontiernet.net> If the primary problem is the acidity level, not the drainage, I actually wouldn't be too worked up about that. It's much easier to raise pH than it is to lower it. Lime will need to be applied from time to time, but it's unlikely to be needed every year. Getting it worked through the soil takes time, especially if you're not tilling; but you could probably get some of it worked in while digging planting holes. Get a good soil test done on the specific site -- that's how you know how much to apply; there is definitely such a thing as too much -- and get another one done about every three years, to check when and whether you need more. For orchards generally you should do a subsoil sample as well as a sample taken nearer the surface. Your county extension office should be able to give you instructions for taking the samples, and may even be able to do the tests. Check what type of lime you should be applying -- some limes are high in magnesium, for instance, and some soils are already naturally high in it also -- you need a complete soil test, not just one for pH. And check what pH is recommended for the particular species you're planting -- quite a lot of fruits (and for that matter vegetables) either prefer or comfortably tolerate a slightly acidic soil. Composting will also help; but I wouldn't dump a lot of wood on the site and plant shortly thereafter -- in the process of breaking down the wood will temporarily tie up a lot of nitrogen. If you've got an area you expect to plant in eventually but not for some years, you could spread high-cellulose stuff over there. If you'd be living there and heating with a wood stove, note that wood ash will also raise pH, as well as return some other nutrients to the soil. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From leeareich at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 11:36:59 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:36:59 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: <59347C14-911E-499E-81DA-41513BEB06BF@frontiernet.net> References: <59347C14-911E-499E-81DA-41513BEB06BF@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <6766DC74-87F4-4909-BA52-84D40E507B8C@gmail.com> Just a short comment on Rivka?s last paragraph. Wood chips are relatively high in carbon with respect to nitrogen, so will temporarily tie up nitrogen ? but only if mixed into the soil. Laid on top of the ground, breakdown is gradual, and at the interface of the mulch and the soil. A dynamic equilibrium then exists where tie up of nitrogen is offset by its slow re-release into the soil. This is not just theory; I?ve used wood chips as mulch for decades, always with good results, and have talked to others with similar experiences. The same could even be said for sawdust, which I?ve also occasionally used as mulch. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Road's End Farm wrote: > > If the primary problem is the acidity level, not the drainage, I actually wouldn't be too worked up about that. It's much easier to raise pH than it is to lower it. Lime will need to be applied from time to time, but it's unlikely to be needed every year. Getting it worked through the soil takes time, especially if you're not tilling; but you could probably get some of it worked in while digging planting holes. > > Get a good soil test done on the specific site -- that's how you know how much to apply; there is definitely such a thing as too much -- and get another one done about every three years, to check when and whether you need more. For orchards generally you should do a subsoil sample as well as a sample taken nearer the surface. Your county extension office should be able to give you instructions for taking the samples, and may even be able to do the tests. > > Check what type of lime you should be applying -- some limes are high in magnesium, for instance, and some soils are already naturally high in it also -- you need a complete soil test, not just one for pH. And check what pH is recommended for the particular species you're planting -- quite a lot of fruits (and for that matter vegetables) either prefer or comfortably tolerate a slightly acidic soil. > > Composting will also help; but I wouldn't dump a lot of wood on the site and plant shortly thereafter -- in the process of breaking down the wood will temporarily tie up a lot of nitrogen. If you've got an area you expect to plant in eventually but not for some years, you could spread high-cellulose stuff over there. If you'd be living there and heating with a wood stove, note that wood ash will also raise pH, as well as return some other nutrients to the soil. > > > -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think > Fresh-market organic produce, small scale > > > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 11:57:53 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:57:53 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Soi pH & depth, and (seasonally high) water tables... Message-ID: Re: Soi pH & depth, and (seasonally high) water tables. Thank you very much for your insight! I hope that this is a topic that will benefit plenty of other reading ? and who will later look these up. Individual replies as follows: @*Alan*: It is interesting to to now know that 'excessive drainage improves fruit quality'. I've had in the past on this point with Cliff & Mr. Lehman.. I now remember finding that the fruit of persimmon trees growing in wetlands usually tasted worse than those found growing in uplands. If the water table is 24? to 36? below the surface (?seasonally? ? whenever that is), I wonder if that's going to result in subpar fruit. Secondly, yes ? the alkaline soil I'm describing a pH that is in the low 7's; nothing like 8 or higher. This is good to know that chestnut and paw paw would be able to tolerate that. I hope that mulching with vegetation, like Lee and Mr. Lehman mentioned, could make it so that they would thrive in low 7's. I'll look out for the condition of larger trees on the site. As per what you've noted and what has just recently been suggested to me by Ron Power ? I'll make an inventory of what trees are on site so that I'll have something less vague to report next time I visit a property. Lastly, I did not consider that poor drainage might result in free standing trees being blown over more than shallow soil (upon bedrock with fissures into which roots might anchor themselves). @*Betsy*: Thank you for saying so! My intention is to combine permaculture (with emphasis, for the most part, Northeastern edibles... persimmon, paw paw, eastern prickly gooseberry ? which is excellent, red mulberry ? which I've yet to try and am told is excellent) and meadows/woodlands native plants (uncommon in my area... narrow-leaf fireweed ? and purple milkweed & Indian paint-brush.. if I end up on calcareous bedrock); to fence about 20 acres of it, or however much I can at that point afford to fence ? deer browse is a major issue out in Northern NJ. I did not know that Cornelian-cherry dogwood could tolerate a pH as long as 5.0; I hope this is the case. However, in their natural habitat, they are found on calcareous roil ? which, does not necessarily prove they need it; the CaCo3 may just be conferring an advantage as far as drought-tolerance. I've seen it growing in city parks on construction-fill soil, so it's probably not as much of an issue as I was initially considering. I'm curious about the comment regarding long-term pH management; I almost think this means that, with the right approach, I can get a lasting effect ? perhaps with shells? Certainly, rain pH has a major impact. @*Lee*: It is useful to know that values differ based upon soil type (sandy vs clay), and specifics re: the liming material, as according to available tables. I just don't yet know if adjusting the pH high will be required. The soil on one site is pH 5; so far, if I'm not mistaken ? it seems that I wouldn't have to adjust the pH for paw paw, persimmon, apple, Cornelian-cherry, etc. Maybe I would however for apricot. And if it's just a bit under, which I don't know that it is as of yet, to know that the use of organic materials can allow more flexibility in pH is good news. You mention that the most important consideration should be water drainage. By this, I hope that a seasonal water table (?for short periods?) 24? to 36? below ground-level would not mean that this site has what would, therefore, be characterized as poor water drainage. The soil is described as moderately well-rained; but again.. seasonally high water-table will mean mesic soils at times, I suppose. Regarding wood chips, I very much agree; it wouldn't tie up nitrogen because the roots will be far below the soil line. It might only effect surface sowing of seeds; acid-tolerant species would recruit well, but alkaline-dependent species would not, which is why some apply sulfur to wildflower meadows, as many of the native species of flowers/grasses will germinate better than the alien invasives. @*Mr. Lehman*: I will definitely pass on any property that features a soil that would require extensive alterations, and as such -- on a continual basis. I'm just stuck on whether I'd have to make any alterations at all to a soil which is slightly above 5.0 on the surface and maybe just about 5.0 in the subsoil for the crops that I'm focused on; persimmon, paw paw, etc. I hope to find something more pH neutral, but does it sound like 5 is very low? I have a (not-too-sophisticated) electronic/battery operated soil pH tester; received it as a gift, recently. It's green with two metal prongs ? called ?Three-Way Meter?. If you think it's likely effective, I'll bring it with me, now that I have it; not sure if it would be valid. Regarding acreage, that would probably make the best sense. I'd have a few dozen acres of woods, and start with clearing only 3 acres or so. The property will dictate this, depending on how much is already clear, if it's not all wooded to begin with. With regards to digging in soil with stones: I tend to plant seedlings/rootstocks that are pencil thin or so; then later graft when they've grown larger, after a few seasons. Since I don't aim to dig them out later, what would be the down-side of having a lot of stones in the soil in this case? I don't see myself selling bareroot fruit trees; perhaps I'd sell potted perennials and container-grown tree seedlings that are not much grown. @*Rivka*: It would be good to know that lime would not have to be applied annually; I wish that using limestone (dolomite) gravel would work and stones pressed into the ground, for a one-time application. You make a good point, which might answer the question I just posed for Mr. Lehman: if there are plenty of stones in the ground, tilling the lime (crushed gravel?) into the soil would be difficult; I thought you just put it on top and press it in ? but I now realize that won't get it deep enough into the soil. I'm hoping that the ?Three-Way Meter? that I have will be a good preliminary test of pH; then I'll have an official test sample taken through the county extension. Would the effect of ash wood raining the pH be permanent, or does this effect dissipate? Thank you for all of the very substantial replies. Steve From organic87 at frontiernet.net Sat Jan 7 12:06:43 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 12:06:43 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: <6766DC74-87F4-4909-BA52-84D40E507B8C@gmail.com> References: <59347C14-911E-499E-81DA-41513BEB06BF@frontiernet.net> <6766DC74-87F4-4909-BA52-84D40E507B8C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > Just a short comment on Rivka?s last paragraph. Wood chips are relatively high in carbon with respect to nitrogen, so will temporarily tie up nitrogen ? but only if mixed into the soil. Laid on top of the ground, breakdown is gradual, and at the interface of the mulch and the soil. A dynamic equilibrium then exists where tie up of nitrogen is offset by its slow re-release into the soil. This is not just theory; I?ve used wood chips as mulch for decades, always with good results, and have talked to others with similar experiences. The same could even be said for sawdust, which I?ve also occasionally used as mulch. Thanks for adding that clarification, Lee. As I understand that, that's quite true. I was thinking of the wood (probably chipped) being mixed into the planting holes during planting, and/or being thought of as immediately remediating any soil problems. On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > Would the effect of ash wood raining the pH > be permanent, or does this effect dissipate? Rather like the lime: it can be long-lasting, but will eventually dissipate. I wouldn't keep applying wood ash to the same small patch year after year -- I once accidentally got the pH way too high in a garden patch that way, years ago. Vary where you apply, and keep an eye on the soil tests -- for potash levels as well as pH. It's unlikely that one household is going to produce enough of the stuff to overload several acres, though. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From filtertitle at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 14:01:08 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (sc) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 14:01:08 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Szukis persimmon Message-ID: Hello, Is anyone growing the 'Szukis' variety of persimmon -- in a location where there are nearly certainly no (northern strain) wild populations of persimmon around? Thank you,Steve (NJ) From orders at cuttsreviews.com Sat Jan 7 15:24:32 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:24:32 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Szukis persimmon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, I have two Szukis plants in NM at 7000 elevation. I got them from the late John Gordon (am I remembering the name right) of western NY as shoots on their own roots from a tree that he had. I had communicated with him about losing the tops of the grafted persimmons I kept trying to plant here. He had told me at first that you couldn't get named varieties on their own roots because they were too hard to make cuttings of but then he was able to get some rooted shoots. In this region the tops often died during their early years but now two of the original three have established themselves and at least some of the top survives. They are about 3 or 4 feet tall after at least 12-15 years. I also have another persimmon that grew up from the roots of an earlier grafted plant. Don't know if it is male or female. It's probably close to 20 years old and is about 6 feet high. I've never noticed flowers on it, nor on the two younger plants. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/7/2017 12:01 PM, sc wrote: > Hello, > Is anyone growing the 'Szukis' variety of persimmon -- in a location where there are nearly certainly no (northern strain) wild populations of persimmon around? > Thank you,Steve (NJ) > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From qazingulaza at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 15:32:00 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 14:32:00 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Szukis persimmon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After 20 years of trying to grow persimmons here in z4b sw WI, I finally have 2 persimmons growing that are about 5 years old (& at the most 5 feet high). They were both grown from seed I got from John Gordon (tho they were mixed in with pawpaw seed I got from John). I tried 3 or 4 times to get Meader persimmon to make it thru our winters but it never did. ~mIEKAL On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Steve, > > I have two Szukis plants in NM at 7000 elevation. I got them from the late > John Gordon (am I remembering the name right) of western NY as shoots on > their own roots from a tree that he had. > > I had communicated with him about losing the tops of the grafted persimmons > I kept trying to plant here. He had told me at first that you couldn't get > named varieties on their own roots because they were too hard to make > cuttings of but then he was able to get some rooted shoots. > > In this region the tops often died during their early years but now two of > the original three have established themselves and at least some of the top > survives. They are about 3 or 4 feet tall after at least 12-15 years. > > I also have another persimmon that grew up from the roots of an earlier > grafted plant. Don't know if it is male or female. It's probably close to 20 > years old and is about 6 feet high. I've never noticed flowers on it, nor on > the two younger plants. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > > On 1/7/2017 12:01 PM, sc wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Is anyone growing the 'Szukis' variety of persimmon -- in a location where >> there are nearly certainly no (northern strain) wild populations of >> persimmon around? >> Thank you,Steve (NJ) >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 15:48:42 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 15:48:42 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Szukis persimmon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Thank you for the reply -- this is very interesting, and hopefully fortunate. I was friends with John Gordon Jr. We spoke quite often and I intended to visit him, at some point. I miss him; an extremely intelligent, good person. At the time of knowing him, he told me that he had Szukis on it's own roots -- which he offered to send me roots of, and I learned about the history of the variety from him, as well as a lot of very interesting thing's regarding George Slate's work with persimmons. At the time, I didn't see that value of having Szukis on it's own roots, as I was just learning how to graft and figured there would be no reason to have it on it's own roots. I greatly regret not taking John up on the offer. One thing of significant memory value to me is that he sent me wood of his favorite Cornus mas, and I sent it to others. I had no success at grafting it -- but a friend succeeded, so one day I'll be able to grow that. Would you please consider sending me a cutting of the roots from Szukis? I was trying to find someone who might have it. I even contacted relatives of the Szukis family, and a family member was going to give me the information on the current owners of the property, but said that she thought it would be gone now. She offered to send me root cuttings of a tree that was a seedling from Lydia Szukis' tree, but my objective was to have roots specifically from Szukis itself, that John offered to send me. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, please consider sending me a piece of the roots so that I can place the root cutting in soil and have it grow into a tree, ungrafted. Thank you, Steve On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Steve, > > I have two Szukis plants in NM at 7000 elevation. I got them from the late > John Gordon (am I remembering the name right) of western NY as shoots on > their own roots from a tree that he had. > > I had communicated with him about losing the tops of the grafted > persimmons I kept trying to plant here. He had told me at first that you > couldn't get named varieties on their own roots because they were too hard > to make cuttings of but then he was able to get some rooted shoots. > > In this region the tops often died during their early years but now two of > the original three have established themselves and at least some of the top > survives. They are about 3 or 4 feet tall after at least 12-15 years. > > I also have another persimmon that grew up from the roots of an earlier > grafted plant. Don't know if it is male or female. It's probably close to > 20 years old and is about 6 feet high. I've never noticed flowers on it, > nor on the two younger plants. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > > On 1/7/2017 12:01 PM, sc wrote: > >> Hello, >> Is anyone growing the 'Szukis' variety of persimmon -- in a location >> where there are nearly certainly no (northern strain) wild populations of >> persimmon around? >> Thank you,Steve (NJ) >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From orders at cuttsreviews.com Sat Jan 7 18:36:34 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:36:34 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Protecting plants in winter/spring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72484d60-ed45-35e6-519f-e4cdbc24b634@cuttsreviews.com> Recent conversations have looked at protecting figs and persimmons. I wanted to share a system I'm working on for protecting fruit trees from late spring frost. Here in NM at 7000 feet we have days in the 50s or 60s even in February but can have a killing frost as late as end of May. As a result, most standard fruit trees rarely bear. I have a handful of peaches, pears, wild plums and cherries in the ground that I wanted to protect. Most of them are not very tall (under 6 feet) because our conditions are so harsh. But I have also started only buying dwarf trees so that they can be kept small enough to protect. My system is to build a frame around each tree using PVC 1/2" pipe and fittings. Easy to use and feels like tinker toys! I found that I do have to glue them or else the strong winds will rock them until the joints separate. I'm covering the frames with 6 mil plastic and had to invent a system for attaching the plastic to the frames, using bolts inserted through the frames and washers glued to the plastic. My plan is to only set up the plastics sides and roofs on nights when a frost is likely. If I had the structures up all the time, the wind would quickly rip them to shreds. There may only be a few such nights in a season. I have small flood lights that would be turned on inside the structure on those nights. This will be the first season that I've done this so can't report on the effectiveness but I have high hopes. I've tested the structures out in high winds and have them fortified enough that they should be able to last a night. I can then do any repairs in the morning. I do have on area of wild plums over which I have one large structure. That was challenging but seemed more efficient than separate structures over each plant, as they are quite close together. I wish I could use structures like this to protect plants that need protection all winter but with our winds they simply wouldn't last. In addition I'm pretty sure that the structures - which are on the average about 4' x 4' by 3 to 6' tall - are not large enough to keep the temperature up without a heat source, though they would reduce wind damage. Anybody have experience with using a one-plant sized structure to protect plants like fig that might need some shelter from extreme temperatures and winds? Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days From 6ducks at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 22:53:21 2017 From: 6ducks at gmail.com (M Stanton) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 22:53:21 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, I have a place in my yard with a fragipan at a similar depth. It is not a good place for fruit trees that need good drainage-- especially Prunus spp. A seasonally high water table promotes root rots, and the ph is an additional challenge. I would look elsewhere if you can. Michele in Ohio Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 6, 2017, at 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > > Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". > Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay fragipan a couple of feet down. > A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. > Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). > My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. > However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and apricot. > In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of top soil/sand. > On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. > I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? > It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd Would something like this work? > > Thank you,Steve NJ > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 02:19:35 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 02:19:35 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michele, I think that I'm going to have to do that; shame.. such a nice looking property, but another will come up. In fact, I'm looking at two others that have soils that need no amending; soils characterized as nearly neutral, deep, well-drained, and prime ag soils. Regarding Prunus, I want to mention that I've recently observed Prunus americana growing in a wetland -- looked like it was old and dying; not sure if it was the age, or the wetfeet - but it's been there for a while, so it might have been ok for some time. Wonder if this would make a good rootstock for wet soils, if one were ok with mowing (keeping up with) the suckers. Thank you, Steve On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 10:53 PM, M Stanton <6ducks at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Steve, > I have a place in my yard with a fragipan at a similar depth. It is not a > good place for fruit trees that need good drainage-- especially Prunus spp. > A seasonally high water table promotes root rots, and the ph is an > additional challenge. I would look elsewhere if you can. > Michele in Ohio > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 6, 2017, at 1:51 PM, sc wrote: > > > > Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out > next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series". > > Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay > fragipan a couple of feet down. > > A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during > is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times. > > Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5). > > My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P. > americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples. > > However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and > apricot. > > In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was > to clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the > projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on > 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of > top soil/sand. > > On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc. > > I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a > seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface? > > It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd > Would something like this work? > > > > Thank you,Steve NJ > > > > > > __________________ > > nafex mailing list > > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From alandhaigh at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 08:34:03 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:34:03 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cufts Szukis persimmon comment Message-ID: Jay, quoting his persimmon guru, "He had told me at first that you couldn't get named varieties on their own roots because they were too hard to make cuttings of". This baffles me. Why not just graft it on a hardy rootstock and bury the graft union or protect it with dirt mounded over it during winter? I've read in Tukey's classic book on dwarf fruit trees that early American growers (educated hobbyists) used to use quince rootstocks for pears in climates too cold for quince by burying the unions. This could be done temporarily over winter or permanently. Also, I wonder if the graft unions would continue to be sensitive to extreme cold after a few years. I can think of no reason they would be. It is not the same as using a cold sensitive rootstock. I have a Szukis shoot growing that I grafted on a sucker from a Kaki grafted to a native persimmon rootstock that died back to the ground. I'm protecting the union right now with a mound of soil. I'm in a relatively warm Z6, but I'm not taking any chances- it is my first successful persimmon graft. I find them quite challenging. From leeareich at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 08:49:43 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:49:43 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cufts Szukis persimmon comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A variation on that is to pt a copper wire loosely around the graft union before you bury/mound it. The scion eventually roots and the wire eventually constricts roots below the graft to kill the rootstock. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 8, 2017, at 8:34 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > Jay, quoting his persimmon guru, "He had told me at first that you couldn't > get named varieties on their own roots because they were too > hard to make cuttings of". > > This baffles me. Why not just graft it on a hardy rootstock and bury the > graft union or protect it with dirt mounded over it during winter? I've > read in Tukey's classic book on dwarf fruit trees that early American > growers (educated hobbyists) used to use quince rootstocks for pears in > climates too cold for quince by burying the unions. This could be done > temporarily over winter or permanently. > > Also, I wonder if the graft unions would continue to be sensitive to > extreme cold after a few years. I can think of no reason they would be. It > is not the same as using a cold sensitive rootstock. > > I have a Szukis shoot growing that I grafted on a sucker from a Kaki > grafted to a native persimmon rootstock that died back to the ground. I'm > protecting the union right now with a mound of soil. I'm in a relatively > warm Z6, but I'm not taking any chances- it is my first successful > persimmon graft. I find them quite challenging. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From alandhaigh at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 09:06:21 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 09:06:21 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee's suggestion Message-ID: "A variation on that is to pt a copper wire loosely around the graft union before you bury/mound it. The scion eventually roots and the wire eventually constricts roots below the graft to kill the rootstock." Brilliant! From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 10:40:11 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:40:11 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cufts Szukis persimmon comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/2017 8:49 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > A variation on that is to pt a copper wire loosely around the graft union before you bury/mound it. The scion eventually roots and the wire eventually constricts roots below the graft to kill the rootstock. Lee, All of us I'm sure appreciate your experienced input on many subjects. I have been a fan of yours for many years. But I do question why would you want to kill the original rootstock? In this case it's virginiana on virginiana so I don't see any harm. But if you burying the graft union of kaki on virginiana I would think you would want to keep the virginiana as it is considered a superior rootstock, more fibrous having more feeder roots. My success of using root cuttings to produce a clone has been quite good. I like to get roots 1 inch in diameter and about 18 inches long, plant them in a vertical position with the top just below the surface of the soil. I would like to relate my experience with Szukis. The fruit is great. When Bill Heiman and I 1st acquired Szukis from Claypool which was grafted on his A-90, we both made 3 graft son 3 separate under stock's. I believe Claypool got his scion from Doug Campbell in Canada who as I recall lived very close to the ortet. Of our grafts one graft came back pistillate, one came back staminate, and the 3rd bisexual. Also some branches will put on both pistillate and staminate flowers. I've often wondered if it is actually a cimera, but I don't believe so as seeds from Szukis X Szukis produce 100% pistillate trees? If there are any nurseries out there that want to sell seedlings that will come back 100% females use Szukis X Szukis seed and be sure stray pollen has not gotten in. And the fruit of those seedlings is very similar to Szukis. Jerry Lehman From leeareich at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 10:50:23 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:50:23 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cufts Szukis persimmon comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CDDC6DA-DC9B-4C02-ADB4-D474B0541851@gmail.com> Jerry, You?re right about not necessarily wanting to kill a rootstock. I just threw that out as a way to do it, if desired. For instance, for an own-rooted pawpaw. I have only two persimmon varieties: Mohler and Szukis. The few grafts I?ve made of my Szukis, which originally came from John Gordon, have all borne well and quickly. I made a new Szukis tree a few years ago and it?s planted about 200 feet from my older Szukis/Mohler combo tree. I imagine it?s self-pollinated. I?ll go out today and check for fruits. Lee Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 8, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Jerry Lehman wrote: > > On 1/8/2017 8:49 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >> A variation on that is to pt a copper wire loosely around the graft union before you bury/mound it. The scion eventually roots and the wire eventually constricts roots below the graft to kill the rootstock. > Lee, > > All of us I'm sure appreciate your experienced input on many subjects. I have been a fan of yours for many years. But I do question why would you want to kill the original rootstock? In this case it's virginiana on virginiana so I don't see any harm. But if you burying the graft union of kaki on virginiana I would think you would want to keep the virginiana as it is considered a superior rootstock, more fibrous having more feeder roots. > > My success of using root cuttings to produce a clone has been quite good. I like to get roots 1 inch in diameter and about 18 inches long, plant them in a vertical position with the top just below the surface of the soil. > > I would like to relate my experience with Szukis. The fruit is great. When Bill Heiman and I 1st acquired Szukis from Claypool which was grafted on his A-90, we both made 3 graft son 3 separate under stock's. I believe Claypool got his scion from Doug Campbell in Canada who as I recall lived very close to the ortet. Of our grafts one graft came back pistillate, one came back staminate, and the 3rd bisexual. Also some branches will put on both pistillate and staminate flowers. I've often wondered if it is actually a cimera, but I don't believe so as seeds from Szukis X Szukis produce 100% pistillate trees? If there are any nurseries out there that want to sell seedlings that will come back 100% females use Szukis X Szukis seed and be sure stray pollen has not gotten in. And the fruit of those seedlings is very similar to Szukis. > > Jerry Lehman > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From alandhaigh at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 11:07:11 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:07:11 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cuft's question Message-ID: "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?' The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of the grafted variety. From mijwiz at yahoo.com Sun Jan 8 11:27:58 2017 From: mijwiz at yahoo.com (Melissa Kacalanos) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:27:58 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee's suggestion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do we know that persimmons can root from the scion? They might just die if their rootstock dies. I wouldn't assume they can do this without evidence. Melissa > On Jan 8, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > "A variation on that is to pt a copper wire loosely around the graft union > before you bury/mound it. The scion eventually roots and the wire > eventually constricts roots below the graft to kill the rootstock." From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 11:45:29 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:45:29 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee's suggestion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46410082-95e8-448f-d70e-8bf75a714896@gmail.com> On 1/8/2017 11:27 AM, Melissa Kacalanos via nafex wrote: > Do we know that persimmons can root from the scion? 10 years ago or more a fellow persimmon enthusiast, David Pierce, tried and tried to root persimmon cuttings. He used various rooting compounds, and chemical mixtures in his basement under controlled temperature and light conditions. He managed to get one cutting to develop one root and when he took it out of the liquid the root broke off. Under the right conditions they will develop callous but I've never seen any developed roots from the callous. They can be propagated in vitro and Prof. Paula Pijut at Purdue University researched the subject and wrote a paper on it. I have about a half dozen trees of Rosseyanka that she propagated in vitro that have been in the ground maybe 10 years but haven't borne any fruit. Acclamation (transferring from the test tube to soil) with persimmon is a big problem. Jerry From orders at cuttsreviews.com Sun Jan 8 13:07:31 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:07:31 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ec3c8e-5b9d-7ea1-ba8a-6d8c991c0c13@cuttsreviews.com> When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above ground but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the plant survived was that new shoots came up from the roots. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?' > > The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are > hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want > to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of > the grafted variety. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From r.fred.bruns at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 13:27:59 2017 From: r.fred.bruns at gmail.com (Robert Bruns) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 13:27:59 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Lee's suggestion In-Reply-To: <46410082-95e8-448f-d70e-8bf75a714896@gmail.com> References: <46410082-95e8-448f-d70e-8bf75a714896@gmail.com> Message-ID: A few years ago, I put down a couple dozen D. virginiana cuttings. Many of them survived for several months, but when I dug them up, none had roots. I also took a couple of kaki plants rooted on virginiana and planted them sideways in a trench, with a couple feet of the scion underground. After two or three years, the scions still hadn't rooted. It seems that persimmons are very reluctant to put out roots from the above-ground parts. Maybe there is some sort of trick that would coax them into rooting. It would be very helpful to be able to root cuttings, because I find that many grafts (even some virginiana on virginiana) fail at the graft junction after a couple of years. Here is a reference to the article on tissue culture of persimmons. It looks simple enough to do at home if you are willing to spend a few hundred dollars for equipment and supplies. http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/48/6/747.full Fred On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Jerry Lehman wrote: > On 1/8/2017 11:27 AM, Melissa Kacalanos via nafex wrote: > >> Do we know that persimmons can root from the scion? >> > 10 years ago or more a fellow persimmon enthusiast, David Pierce, tried > and tried to root persimmon cuttings. He used various rooting compounds, > and chemical mixtures in his basement under controlled temperature and > light conditions. He managed to get one cutting to develop one root and > when he took it out of the liquid the root broke off. Under the right > conditions they will develop callous but I've never seen any developed > roots from the callous. They can be propagated in vitro and Prof. Paula > Pijut at Purdue University researched the subject and wrote a paper on it. > I have about a half dozen trees of Rosseyanka that she propagated in vitro > that have been in the ground maybe 10 years but haven't borne any fruit. > Acclamation (transferring from the test tube to soil) with persimmon is a > big problem. > > Jerry > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From alandhaigh at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 13:42:08 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 13:42:08 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis Message-ID: Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is evidence that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail. You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know. Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully with? From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 14:36:24 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:36:24 -0500 Subject: [nafex] PLEASE READ: Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soil Message-ID: I just got off the phone with a friend who grows persimmons, paw paws, apples, plums, peaches, shagbark/shellbark hickories, pecans, black walnuts, etc. in conditions that now have me EXCEPTIONALLY confused. I've been to the orchard many times. The soil is deep, well-drained fine sandy loam which is extreme acid to very acidic throughout the profile; contains plenty of glauconite (iron potassium silicate, and is therefore a great source of potassium). Dominant Vegetation: Mixed oaks, American perismmon, yellow poplar, sweet gum, red maple, American beech, and American holly. Understory species: highbush blueberry, spicebush, viburnum, and greenbriar. Two things: 1. The water table right now is about 1 foot under the ground level. During the months of January through April, the seasonal water table is supposed to be 18" to 40", according to the actual type "Adelphia high glauconite variant fine sandy loam"; in the case of this specific property, it's even a bit higher. His orchard is located in the lowland portion of the property and, according to the wetland survey, is or was wetland. 2. The soil is acidic; he does not apply lime or any sort of amendments. One pecan gets yellow leaves, which indicates a Zinc deficiency. The other pecans do well. The hickories do great. Persimmons are great. Paw paws are the awesome. There is are two apple trees that look very good. I don't remember the condition of the peach or plum trees he has -- but I'll ask about this, and take a look at them this year. If the loam, sandy soil is described as being "extreme acid" and having a seasonal water table that is just 18" to 40" bellow the ground, maybe the property that I was considering being described as "acidic to very acidic" (sandy, loamy) and having a seasonal water table that's 24" to 40" would be acceptable. Everything about that property, if I didn't see it myself, would tell me: no apples, no pecans, etc. The only thing that I could think of is that these things will grow, but aren't thriving or producing optimal crops. Or maybe because the soil is sandy loam, there's plenty of oxygen getting into the soil, which might make all the difference. What does every one think about this? Thank you, Steve From leeareich at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 14:51:49 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:51:49 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58223AA6-821C-4640-A96D-CE89646AA5CB@gmail.com> I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in some book. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to > rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted > at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is evidence > that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation > by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail. > You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know. > > Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully with? > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From alandhaigh at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 14:57:27 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:57:27 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi Message-ID: These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so obviously apples are fairly adaptable. According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil. I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a dairy farm. From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 15:25:57 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 15:25:57 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alan, Super insightful. The pH of the property I'm looking into is pH 5.5 on the top down to 5.0 in the subsoil. The soil of the other property is 5.0 and sometimes just under 5.0. I was very interested to know that emphasis on pH could be about getting calcium into the fruit for storage; I now remember that with respect to persimmon cultivation. This is a good point in favor of growing on soils which are circum-neutral; something that I need to keep in mind. I was interested also to know that there are areas where even a permanent water table of 18" works. That's the key -- as you say: having a failry constant layer of well-aerated soil. This, to my thinking, should be the reason that my friend is able to grow stone fruits and Asian pears on soil with a water table that is just 12" under the surface during the late winter months; his soil is sandy loam that is very loose. The soil of the property I'm describing is very similarly structured -- and the water table is a bit lower. I a definitely going through a great deal of agony-of-indecision. I was greatly disappointed this weekend when my realtor contacted me regarding a listing that he said was expired - and therefore available. I researched it all weekend. A great amount of space, amazing soils (deep, well-drained, circum-neutral), nice wetlands, nice uplands, nice rocky outcroppings, nice deep fields without a high water table.. literally exactly what I was hoping for). He made a mistake -- it was under contract, as I told him it was.. I knew it was, but thought.. maybe it fell through. The only reason that I'm not holding out until something as impressive like that one shows up is because it was the only one that fit exactly what I was looking for in the past year. So, statistically, maybe another one like it one come up for year -- and because the property with acidic soil and a seasonally high water table has some exceptional characteristics in terms of natural beauty and location that has me willing to consider it.. so long as I can grow nearly all that I intend to, which -- given that the soils are gravely, sandy, loamy and the issue of the seasonally high water table isn't that bad, and the soil is not more acidic than 5.0 -- I think that I might as well further research it and begin doing official soil samples. Thank you, Steve On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an > actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage > as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt > to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is > research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient > apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so > obviously apples are fairly adaptable. > > According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some > very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where > there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to > contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil. > > I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting > nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a > pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the > surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with > impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also > owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if > you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after > going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a > dairy farm. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 15:30:04 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 15:30:04 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis In-Reply-To: <58223AA6-821C-4640-A96D-CE89646AA5CB@gmail.com> References: <58223AA6-821C-4640-A96D-CE89646AA5CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: I currently have a test plot of American persimmon where the soil line is several inches higher than it should be -- too see if rooting will occur; or if rotting won't occur, for that matter. I read that, under laboratory conditions, there was success in rooting persimmon scions -- including Szukis, in specific, and I think that I read that the trees survived. I'll have to find the article sometime. On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in > some book. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at > http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener?s Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > > > On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > > > Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to > > rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis > planted > > at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is > evidence > > that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation > > by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods > fail. > > You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know. > > > > Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully > with? > > __________________ > > nafex mailing list > > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 15:31:55 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 15:31:55 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question In-Reply-To: <84ec3c8e-5b9d-7ea1-ba8a-6d8c991c0c13@cuttsreviews.com> References: <84ec3c8e-5b9d-7ea1-ba8a-6d8c991c0c13@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: Interesting. How many years have passed until the plant was again killed down to the ground, to later re-sprout? I think you should great an enclosure for one so that it will fruit. On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above ground > but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the plant survived > was that new shoots came up from the roots. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > >> "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?' >> >> The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are >> hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want >> to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of >> the grafted variety. >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From nuttrees at prtcnet.org Sun Jan 8 16:24:50 2017 From: nuttrees at prtcnet.org (England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard and NUrsery) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:24:50 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons Message-ID: <028201d269f5$a54fa550$efeeeff0$@prtcnet.org> RE: rooting kakis For what this is worth About 10 to 15 years ago we developed a method for in which we was stooling persimmons some of you out there may still have some of them but it was abandoned due to it was taking 2 to 3 year to bring off a crop of trees In most cases we just do not have that kind of time to produce a crop of nursery material / trees But Lee R. was right by burying the grafted trees far below ground level and inducing a type of slow injury to most any plant will cause adventitious root to develop We did it for about 4 to 5 year and then in Oct. 2004 I was call back to the military / Army to serve in Iraq and well much of those project when to the way side I'm still on the mends which has taken me over 10 year but by far better than I was in 2006 some of those trees are thickets now and producing fruit and have not been dug in years and for that matter most likely will not be but the rooting or stool bedding of trees is not a new method The issue at hand is time why take 2,3, even 4 year to stool trees when you can graft one spring and produce trees that are 4, 5 ,6 feet tall and well branched and ready to produce fruit Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why and it is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the method is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this level This is just my 2 cents worth Happy New Years Cliff Thank you Kum Hui and Clifford England England?s Orchard and Nursery 2338 HIGHWAY 2004 Mc Kee,? KY.? 40447-8342 Specializing in alternative crops. www.nuttrees.net Email:? nuttrees at prtcnet.org? Ph. # 606 965 2228 See us On FACEBOOK @? https://www.facebook.com/Kynuttrees https://www.facebook.com/KYorchard -----Original Message----- From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of nafex-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2017 14:58 To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: nafex Digest, Vol 196, Issue 53 Send nafex mailing list submissions to nafex at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nafex-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at nafex-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nafex digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: rooting kakis (Lee Reich) 2. Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi (Alan Haigh) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:51:49 -0500 From: Lee Reich To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters Subject: Re: [nafex] rooting kakis Message-ID: <58223AA6-821C-4640-A96D-CE89646AA5CB at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in some book. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to > rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted > at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is evidence > that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation > by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail. > You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know. > > Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully with? > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:57:27 -0500 From: Alan Haigh To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so obviously apples are fairly adaptable. According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil. I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a dairy farm. ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex ------------------------------ End of nafex Digest, Vol 196, Issue 53 ************************************** From organic87 at frontiernet.net Sun Jan 8 17:03:27 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth: When I first moved here, there were some naturalized daffodils growing in a wet spot where I was about to have some tile line put through. I dug some of them up, and, under the impression that if they were in a wet spot that must be what they liked, moved them to another wet spot on the property (neither spot is wet all year, but both are sodden for significant parts of every year, and shallow soil over rock outcrops). They naturalized on the new spot, and survived in the old one, and I now have daffodils coming up wild in both areas every spring (they've never gotten any further care.) Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil. For that matter, I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's not supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored peaches and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground. The trees were short lived, but that probably is due partly to climate and partly to my not having taken very good care of them. -- I suspect that some of these things are cultivar/root stock dependent; and also that at least some cultivars of most plants will do reasonably well in conditions that are less than theoretically ideal for them. The Extension and similar recommendations also tend to be for highest crop production, which is not necessarily the same as for best flavor, best insect resistance, etc. Are you intending to grow commercially? If so, are your markets likely to be willing to pay extra for flavor, or are they likely to only be interested in tonnage? (I seem to have moved from trying to talk you out of this place into trying to talk you into it. But on your further description it's neither as acidic nor as wet as I first thought you were describing.) -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From garygarlic at earthlink.net Sun Jan 8 17:08:51 2017 From: garygarlic at earthlink.net (Gary Woods) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:08:51 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote: >Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil. There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a marshy spot that hosted masses of them. -- Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G From organic87 at frontiernet.net Sun Jan 8 17:15:57 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:15:57 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22D35008-F38C-4E7B-8D6A-5759AD84D3FD@frontiernet.net> On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Gary Woods wrote: > On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote: > >> Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil. > > There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When > I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a > marshy spot that hosted masses of them. > I've no idea. It's a yellow old fashioned type daffodil. I was told that they had once been grown in beds near the house by previous owners, but somebody didn't like or didn't want to bother with them and threw them out in the fields, and they survived and grew out there. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From leeareich at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 19:33:54 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:33:54 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: <22D35008-F38C-4E7B-8D6A-5759AD84D3FD@frontiernet.net> References: <22D35008-F38C-4E7B-8D6A-5759AD84D3FD@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: Are you sure you don?t mean yellow flag iris? Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:15 PM, Road's End Farm wrote: > > > On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Gary Woods wrote: > >> On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil. >> >> There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When >> I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a >> marshy spot that hosted masses of them. >> > > I've no idea. It's a yellow old fashioned type daffodil. I was told that they had once been grown in beds near the house by previous owners, but somebody didn't like or didn't want to bother with them and threw them out in the fields, and they survived and grew out there. > > > -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think > Fresh-market organic produce, small scale > > > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From organic87 at frontiernet.net Sun Jan 8 19:56:43 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:56:43 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: <22D35008-F38C-4E7B-8D6A-5759AD84D3FD@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <734A95A0-140A-4854-9295-962ECC4E45C2@frontiernet.net> On Jan 8, 2017, at 7:33 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > Are you sure you don?t mean yellow flag iris? Pretty sure. Doesn't look like the picture I found for those. Looks a lot more like this: http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/flower-bulbs/bright-yellow-daffodil.html -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From filtertitle at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 22:27:23 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 22:27:23 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Betsy: This is sound advice. If I learn that pH of 5.0 is makes it a maybe property, then I'll pass -- which is what I'm looking to find out. Because I do not want to lime my fields. I will create a native wildflower/grass meadow around the trees, just mowing under the areas near the trunk, and do not anticipate tilling the soil on a repeated basis. @Rivka: For sure some of these are cultivar and root-stock dependent. I know of a situation of pecans growing on acidic, high-water table sandy soil; all but one tree does well on those conditions there. On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Road's End Farm wrote: > For what it's worth: > > When I first moved here, there were some naturalized daffodils growing in > a wet spot where I was about to have some tile line put through. I dug some > of them up, and, under the impression that if they were in a wet spot that > must be what they liked, moved them to another wet spot on the property > (neither spot is wet all year, but both are sodden for significant parts of > every year, and shallow soil over rock outcrops). They naturalized on the > new spot, and survived in the old one, and I now have daffodils coming up > wild in both areas every spring (they've never gotten any further care.) > > Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil. > > For that matter, I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's > not supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored > peaches and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground. The > trees were short lived, but that probably is due partly to climate and > partly to my not having taken very good care of them. > > -- I suspect that some of these things are cultivar/root stock dependent; > and also that at least some cultivars of most plants will do reasonably > well in conditions that are less than theoretically ideal for them. > > The Extension and similar recommendations also tend to be for highest crop > production, which is not necessarily the same as for best flavor, best > insect resistance, etc. Are you intending to grow commercially? If so, are > your markets likely to be willing to pay extra for flavor, or are they > likely to only be interested in tonnage? > > (I seem to have moved from trying to talk you out of this place into > trying to talk you into it. But on your further description it's neither as > acidic nor as wet as I first thought you were describing.) > > > -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think > Fresh-market organic produce, small scale > > > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From filtertitle at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 00:33:20 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 00:33:20 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime? Message-ID: Hi, This is a description of the soil that I would be working with, if I went with this property. Ordinarily, I would be concerned with the fact that the pH will be 5.0 -- however, with the presence of the specific minerals in the soil, I wonder if these abundance/presence of these will help compensate for the low pH. The mineralogy is dominated by quartz and feldspars -- with some mica and ferromagnesian minerals. Very deep well or moderately well drained soil formed in till on complex hilly topography. Moderately deep to a fragipan, or dense, hard subsoil. Permeability is moderately rapid to moderate above the fragipan and slow to very slow in the fragipan. Rockaway soils developed in course or moderately course textured till composed of granitic gneiss with smaller amounts of quartzite, sandstone and shale. Natural vegetation is largely woodland dominated by oak, ash and hickory with some maple, birch, and hemlock; Rhododendron spp., Kalmi, Lindera benzoin, etc.. Depth to bedrock is typically greater than 6 feet. Depth to the fragipan is 18 to 40 inches and the thickness ranges from 12 to 36 inches. Rock fragments range from 5% to 65% of the soil?s makeup. Reaction is strongly acid or very strongly acid throughout; average pH of 5.0. For growing stone fruits, paw paw, persimmon, pecan, and other fruit crops, if I need to add lime, I will pass on this property. I want to note that I researched the pH of the sandy soil (high seasonal water table) that is found on my friend's property -- he grows all of the above crops (again, including pecan) on sandy soil which is even more acidic: pH of 4.6. If the fruit would taste good and not have a great shelf-life, I'm ok with this. If the shelf-life is poor and the quality (flavor) of the fruit is compromised by a pH of 5.0, then I'll pass on the property. I don't mind scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying, simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat. The ecological value of my project is of equal importance to the permaculture value. So, pH value of 5.0 with a soil rich in feldspars (which I suppose might give off some calcite), and some iron/magnesian components as well. Thank you, Steve From orders at cuttsreviews.com Mon Jan 9 01:07:27 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 23:07:27 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question In-Reply-To: References: <84ec3c8e-5b9d-7ea1-ba8a-6d8c991c0c13@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: If I remember, the first few years the plant died back to the ground. After that, maybe part of the top died and part survived, with some new shoots from the ground. I've never seen any evidence even of flowering. I'm not sure what kind of enclosure would make any difference. It might protect the plant from wind and sun but not from temperature. It was -1 degree the other night here! It would be the same temperature inside any enclosure unless I had supplemental heat. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/8/2017 1:31 PM, Steven Covacci wrote: > Interesting. How many years have passed until the plant was again killed > down to the ground, to later re-sprout? I think you should great an > enclosure for one so that it will fruit. > > > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > >> When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above ground >> but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the plant survived >> was that new shoots came up from the roots. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: >> >>> "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?' >>> >>> The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are >>> hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want >>> to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of >>> the grafted variety. >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 03:36:24 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 03:36:24 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Found this online - is this true? Message-ID: "Rhododendrons, for example, are often thought of as acid-loving. In reality, they love magnesium, which is sometimes more available at a low pH, and they aren?t particularly fond of calcium. They?ll grow just fine in a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils." Is this true? From leeareich at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:32:09 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 07:32:09 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Found this online - is this true? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My guess is that it is not true. They get iron deficiency at higher pH levels (greater than about 6). Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 9, 2017, at 3:36 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > > "Rhododendrons, for example, are often thought of as acid-loving. In > reality, they love magnesium, which is sometimes more available at a low > pH, and they aren?t particularly fond of calcium. They?ll grow just fine in > a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic > matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils." > > Is this true? > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From alandhaigh at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:40:15 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 07:40:15 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Stone fruit soil Message-ID: ,Rivka writes, "I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's not supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored peaches and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground." The requirement of good drainage variation between plums on,say, myro, and peaches on any of their common rootstocks is as varied as possible in the realm of popular fruits. Myro not only does relatively well in poorly drained soils, but, anecdotally, I have found that plums and only plums of common fruits do not lose brix when produced in relatively wet soil. In my experience and according to the literature, peaches are the opposite of plums in this regard and, even in average textured soil, live longer when grown on berms. In wet locations I can always grow them successfully as long as I create mounds high enough to assure drainage, much like blueberries can grow in a marsh on the raised soil formations they seem to thrive on. I manage over 100 mostly non-commercial orchards in a wide range of soil types and it seems that the highest quality fruit comes from the sandiest soils. Quick drainage and a moderate amount of water stress seems to send the carbohydrates to fruit at the expense of vegetative growth. Wine growers are intensely aware of this association because they are focused on brix. Many fruit growers aren't so focused on this because customers judge the purchase so much on appearance. Sometimes practices and soils that encourage high brix also discourage large sized fruit. From alandhaigh at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 08:08:55 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:08:55 -0500 Subject: [nafex] blueberries at high pH Message-ID: They?ll grow just fine in a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils." Once again, no actual numbers, so depends on what you mean by high pH. I have very productive blueberries in soil with the upper 8" of soil profile in the mid 6.s, but with about 5.6 below. Mulched soil, over time, swings towards neutral if you are starting in normal blueberry range. Most acid loving plants only need a percentage of their soil profile to be at a range where any given nutrients are readily available. Somehow, highbush northern blueberries must have ready access to free iron, apparently. Rabbiteye blueberries have different needs and can thrive in more alkaline soils, but there is supposedly some range of adaptability even between various northern highbush cultivars. From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 08:37:31 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:37:31 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons In-Reply-To: <028201d269f5$a54fa550$efeeeff0$@prtcnet.org> References: <028201d269f5$a54fa550$efeeeff0$@prtcnet.org> Message-ID: <51b51428-1fad-3b52-dd77-f955ac6af0ba@gmail.com> On 1/8/2017 4:24 PM, England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard and NUrsery wrote: > Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why and it is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the method > is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this level, Cliff When you say rooted trees you're smean induced roots? The Rosseyanka trees I have from Paula Pijut's in-vitro propagation would tend the back that up. My experience is that grafted Rosseyanka, the same as Morris Burton, do take longer to come into bearing after grafting than most other persimmon varieties. Also my in-vitro Rosseyanka seem to be less vigorous, but I can't say for sure because the timer or two when we had a night of -10? and lower there was considerable winter freeze damage. Jerry From organic87 at frontiernet.net Mon Jan 9 09:28:50 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:28:50 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > I don't mind > scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing > I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying, > simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat. Ah, I see. I was confused about why you were so opposed to lime; but you're not opposed to lime, you're opposed to tillage on this sort of site. That makes sense. How about incorporating lime through a sizeable planting hole for each individual tree, as well as applying some overall on the surface? Others on the list, would that work? And again: test the specific soil on that particular site, don't just look at the soil map. And test in several places. You may have some sizeable pockets of sweeter soil. I have certainly had very good flavored peaches from a field testing in the low 6's. I don't know about the low 5's; maybe somebody else does. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From organic87 at frontiernet.net Mon Jan 9 09:40:50 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:40:50 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Stone fruit soil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4072CCD5-591F-4170-AD88-8985B8E47C6D@frontiernet.net> On Jan 9, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > Sometimes practices and soils that > encourage high brix also discourage large sized fruit. They were relatively small peaches and plums; though that may have had to do with insufficient thinning. -- Myro was indeed one of the rootstocks. From dwoodard at becon.org Mon Jan 9 10:37:39 2017 From: dwoodard at becon.org (dwoodard at becon.org) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 10:37:39 -0500 Subject: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons In-Reply-To: <028201d269f5$a54fa550$efeeeff0$@prtcnet.org> References: <028201d269f5$a54fa550$efeeeff0$@prtcnet.org> Message-ID: <400009fd84f1afd354351d0fc4d8379c@becon.org> I seem to recall reading a suggestion that the cause was a reversion to the juvenile stage, or possibly in some cases propagation from juvenile wood. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:24:50 -0500, "England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard and NUrsery" wrote: > RE: rooting kakis > > Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why > and it > is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the > method > is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this > level > > This is just my 2 cents worth > > Happy New Years > > Cliff > > Thank you > Kum Hui and Clifford England > England?s Orchard and Nursery References: Message-ID: Comments for Rivka & Alan here bellow Rivka at I will definitely test multiple areas on the site; hopefully some of the ares are of high pH... woudln't doubt it. But if I incorporate lime into the planting hole for each individual tree (in addition to applying some overall tot he surface), won't what I added to the hole eventually get used up, so that this is only a temporary benefit. Looks like the advantage of this might be temporary. Also, I gather that it would be acceptable for me to apply just on the surface, and not have to till it in. If so, this is good. Yes -- more opposed to tillage on the site than applying lime on surface. Secondly, since the soil is a course sandy loam substrate that is loosely held together, I think that the lime would penetrate into the soil. Lastly, since this particular soil contains traces of magnesium, I think this would be of help. @Alan: "Quick drainage and a moderate amount of water stress seems to send the carbohydrates to fruit at the expense of vegetative growth." This is good to know; and what I've always suspected I've observed -- or that smaller fruit means more sugar per volume, as there is less water in the fruit? Thank you, Steve On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Road's End Farm wrote: > > On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > > > I don't mind > > scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing > > I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying, > > simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat. > > Ah, I see. I was confused about why you were so opposed to lime; but > you're not opposed to lime, you're opposed to tillage on this sort of site. > That makes sense. > > How about incorporating lime through a sizeable planting hole for each > individual tree, as well as applying some overall on the surface? Others on > the list, would that work? > > And again: test the specific soil on that particular site, don't just look > at the soil map. And test in several places. You may have some sizeable > pockets of sweeter soil. > > I have certainly had very good flavored peaches from a field testing in > the low 6's. I don't know about the low 5's; maybe somebody else does. > > > -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think > Fresh-market organic produce, small scale > > > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From filtertitle at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 11:05:20 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 11:05:20 -0500 Subject: [nafex] blueberries at high pH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Alan: This is very interesting. How can one add sufficient levels of magnesium to the soil? Epsom salt? Also, this is an idea: if pH is not the real issue, and the absence of enough Mg is, why can't one add Dolomite limestone to the soil for blueberries; higher pH and higher Mg would result. @everyone: There are two varieties of northern high-bush bluery (V. corymbosum) that I know of that can take more typical garden soil (clay, higher pH)... 1. Jersey 2. Hardiblue I think Reka too, and just read about one called Sunshine[something]. Does anyone know any others. On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Alan Haigh wrote: > They?ll grow just fine in > a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic > matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils." > > Once again, no actual numbers, so depends on what you mean by high pH. I > have very productive blueberries in soil with the upper 8" of soil profile > in the mid 6.s, but with about 5.6 below. Mulched soil, over time, swings > towards neutral if you are starting in normal blueberry range. Most acid > loving plants only need a percentage of their soil profile to be at a range > where any given nutrients are readily available. Somehow, highbush > northern blueberries must have ready access to free iron, apparently. > > Rabbiteye blueberries have different needs and can thrive in more alkaline > soils, but there is supposedly some range of adaptability even between > various northern highbush cultivars. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From alandhaigh at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 17:49:36 2017 From: alandhaigh at gmail.com (Alan Haigh) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:49:36 -0500 Subject: [nafex] answering Steven Covacci Message-ID: My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times (hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about. My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH even an inch down. Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20 years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2 pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way. From organic87 at frontiernet.net Mon Jan 9 18:12:40 2017 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:12:40 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96FF20BC-8DE6-4E64-A236-05BD0CC487BD@frontiernet.net> On Jan 9, 2017, at 10:58 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > if I incorporate lime > into the planting hole for each individual tree (in addition to applying > some overall tot he surface), won't what I added to the hole eventually get > used up, so that this is only a temporary benefit. Presuming that lime applied to the surface works its way down through the soil, though very slowly, if enough is applied so that it's not all neutralized right near the surface: the idea is that the lime incorporated at planting provides benefit through the root zone to start with, and then as its effects wane they're replaced by surface applications which have worked their way down. Later surface applications every few years as per soil test replace the first one, and so on. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 20:11:10 2017 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 20:11:10 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci wrote: > Ordinarily, I would be concerned with the fact that the pH will be 5.0 -- > however, with the presence of the specific minerals in the soil, I wonder > if these abundance/presence of these will help compensate for the low pH. > > The mineralogy is dominated by quartz and feldspars -- with some mica and > ferromagnesian minerals. > Apply to the soil surface & forget tillage to raise pH: dolomitic lime, pulverized high calcium lime, pulverized oyster/seashell, pulverized aragonite siltation pond fines from local rock quarries (rock dust) -- Lawrence F. London, Jr. lfljvenaura at gmail.com https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From filtertitle at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 23:55:17 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:55:17 -0500 Subject: [nafex] answering Steven Covacci In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alan, I'm highly impressed with the thoroughness of your thinking, for a lack of a better phrase. You're comments and points are very often exceptional. Steve On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with > blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject > because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see > corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there > that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence > and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery > that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times > (hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about. > > My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they > need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even > when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than > acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this > situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured > iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH > even an inch down. > > Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the > mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line > argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded > that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that > were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking > about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my > examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20 > years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2 > pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable > cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I > swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > From leeareich at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 10:40:17 2017 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 10:40:17 -0500 Subject: [nafex] answering Steven Covacci In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F52EED5-11B7-46CD-9340-77D64BBDFCEC@gmail.com> A lot of organic matter in the soil also helps. I rarely test the pH of the soil beneath my blueberries. They grow exceptionally well ? about 12 quarts per year per plant! Part of the reason is that the plants have gotten about a 3 inch depth of woodchips, shavings, or leaves every autumn. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener?s Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On Jan 9, 2017, at 5:49 PM, Alan Haigh wrote: > > My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with > blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject > because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see > corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there > that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence > and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery > that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times > (hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about. > > My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they > need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even > when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than > acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this > situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured > iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH > even an inch down. > > Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the > mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line > argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded > that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that > were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking > about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my > examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20 > years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2 > pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable > cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I > swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way. > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From filtertitle at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 00:03:24 2017 From: filtertitle at gmail.com (Steven Covacci) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:03:24 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Szukis x Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift? Message-ID: Regarding hybrid persimmons -- 1. Is it possible that Rosseyanka (hybrid persimmon) or Nikita's Gift (hybrid persimmon) might sport a few male limbs/flowers on occasion? 2. If this is possible... is it also possible that a pollinator might visit a male blossom on Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift and transfer this pollen to the female blossom of a nearby pure American persimmon (northern strain; 90-c), that viable seed would be produced through the crossing? 3. Can a 100% pure male American persimmon (northern strain) openly pollinated cross with Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift, that viable seed would be produced; correct? Lastly, does anyone one have a collection of American persimmons that have no near by male persimmon trees -- no pollinator tree EXCEPT for Szukis? That they could send (/sell) me seed? Thank you very much, Steve From marillen at earthlink.net Mon Jan 16 17:49:20 2017 From: marillen at earthlink.net (Anton Callaway) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:49:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces Message-ID: <4969120.12310.1484606961399@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jay, How are your quinces doing? Embarassingly, I just noticed that you had attempted to send an email to me last year. I was cleaning up my overflowing inbox and saw that the spamblocker was overly protective and furthermore has auto-deleted the original message. Please accept my apologies for the very late response. Best regards, Anton -----Original Message----- >From: Jay Cutts >Sent: May 21, 2016 11:20 AM >To: Anton Callaway , mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces > >I have a quince tree here at 7000 feet elevation in NM. It's at least 15 >years old. > >It has never flowered. Anyone have any ideas why? Could it be that the >cold kills the flower buds? We're not that frigid here (maybe zone 4) >but the winters are dry, sunny and windy. > >Is there any other possible reason? Is there some way I could check to >see if it has even formed flower buds in the fall? > >Regards, > >Jay > >Jay Cutts >Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >(505)-281-0684 >10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > >On 5/21/2016 9:42 AM, Anton Callaway wrote: >> Betsy, >> >> I've been growing quinces for a few decades, but have just about given up because of rust. If you can't wipe out all the red cedar trees within a 10 mile radius (that's an exaggeration), then you will have problems with rust. My last ditch effort was to bring in a 'Lisle's Special' quince, which was purported to be resistant to rust. It is not. I took out the tree last year. The only quince I have remaining is a seedling of Lisle's Special. It is also showing a lot of rust. I expect it will be yanked out, too in a few years. >> >> Sorry for the bad news. I love the fruit also. >> >> Lester Davis gave me a quince-like tree a few years ago. It is certainly not C. oblonga, but the fruit is similar in flavor. It gets rust, but not so severely that I want to remove it. It also has a wonderful fragrance akin to the C. oblonga fruit from my grandmother's yard and the exfoliating bark is quite ornamental. You might contact him for more information. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Anton >> Piedmont region of NC, near RTP >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth Hilborn >>> Sent: May 17, 2016 8:38 PM >>> To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> Subject: [nafex] My poor young quince >>> >>> I have never tried growing Cydonia oblonga before as we have severe fire >>> blight here. However, a site opened up with good ventilation and first >>> AM sun. I love the fruit so I bought a tree. It arrived in our warm >>> early spring, I was able to protect it from the late freezes. It was >>> vigorous and put out at least 10 inches of new growth with healthy leaves. >>> >>> Now, although it has escaped fire blight, it is suffering extensively >> >from rust. The apical meristem is brown and necrotic, each leaf is at >>> least somewhat deformed and every petiole is swelling with future >>> fruiting bodies. One petiole has already started releasing spores. >>> >>> I feel like I have staked a goat out in a tiger infested jungle. >>> >>> So, does anyone have experience with this? Is this young tree destined >>> to die a long, protracted death, or can it survive this severe rust >>> infection? I would rather rip the quince out if it is a hopeless cause >>> for survival. This IS a bad rust year, my apples are suffering too - not >>> every year is so bad.... >>> >>> >>> Betsy Hilborn >>> 7a Central NC >>> >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >__________________ >nafex mailing list >nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From orders at cuttsreviews.com Mon Jan 16 17:59:35 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:59:35 -0700 Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces In-Reply-To: <4969120.12310.1484606961399@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4969120.12310.1484606961399@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi, Anton. Thanks for checking in. I've still never seen a flower on the tree. I think I have an idea of what a flower bud might look like and it seems like I've seen a few but no flower. I'm going to try a different variety and see how it does. I wish I knew how to identify flower buds on it. Then I could check and see if there are any and if they seem to lose viability at some point before spring. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Anton Callaway wrote: > Jay, > > How are your quinces doing? > > Embarassingly, I just noticed that you had attempted to send an email to me last year. I was cleaning up my overflowing inbox and saw that the spamblocker was overly protective and furthermore has auto-deleted the original message. > > Please accept my apologies for the very late response. > > Best regards, > > Anton > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Jay Cutts >> Sent: May 21, 2016 11:20 AM >> To: Anton Callaway , mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces >> >> I have a quince tree here at 7000 feet elevation in NM. It's at least 15 >> years old. >> >> It has never flowered. Anyone have any ideas why? Could it be that the >> cold kills the flower buds? We're not that frigid here (maybe zone 4) >> but the winters are dry, sunny and windy. >> >> Is there any other possible reason? Is there some way I could check to >> see if it has even formed flower buds in the fall? >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> On 5/21/2016 9:42 AM, Anton Callaway wrote: >>> Betsy, >>> >>> I've been growing quinces for a few decades, but have just about given up because of rust. If you can't wipe out all the red cedar trees within a 10 mile radius (that's an exaggeration), then you will have problems with rust. My last ditch effort was to bring in a 'Lisle's Special' quince, which was purported to be resistant to rust. It is not. I took out the tree last year. The only quince I have remaining is a seedling of Lisle's Special. It is also showing a lot of rust. I expect it will be yanked out, too in a few years. >>> >>> Sorry for the bad news. I love the fruit also. >>> >>> Lester Davis gave me a quince-like tree a few years ago. It is certainly not C. oblonga, but the fruit is similar in flavor. It gets rust, but not so severely that I want to remove it. It also has a wonderful fragrance akin to the C. oblonga fruit from my grandmother's yard and the exfoliating bark is quite ornamental. You might contact him for more information. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Anton >>> Piedmont region of NC, near RTP >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth Hilborn >>>> Sent: May 17, 2016 8:38 PM >>>> To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> Subject: [nafex] My poor young quince >>>> >>>> I have never tried growing Cydonia oblonga before as we have severe fire >>>> blight here. However, a site opened up with good ventilation and first >>>> AM sun. I love the fruit so I bought a tree. It arrived in our warm >>>> early spring, I was able to protect it from the late freezes. It was >>>> vigorous and put out at least 10 inches of new growth with healthy leaves. >>>> >>>> Now, although it has escaped fire blight, it is suffering extensively >>> >from rust. The apical meristem is brown and necrotic, each leaf is at >>>> least somewhat deformed and every petiole is swelling with future >>>> fruiting bodies. One petiole has already started releasing spores. >>>> >>>> I feel like I have staked a goat out in a tiger infested jungle. >>>> >>>> So, does anyone have experience with this? Is this young tree destined >>>> to die a long, protracted death, or can it survive this severe rust >>>> infection? I would rather rip the quince out if it is a hopeless cause >>>> for survival. This IS a bad rust year, my apples are suffering too - not >>>> every year is so bad.... >>>> >>>> >>>> Betsy Hilborn >>>> 7a Central NC >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From ramoyer at gmail.com Mon Jan 16 20:20:32 2017 From: ramoyer at gmail.com (Richard Moyer) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:20:32 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Speaking of quince Message-ID: Jay, Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and rust pressure. Richard Moyer Russell Co., SW VA From orders at cuttsreviews.com Mon Jan 16 23:46:58 2017 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 21:46:58 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Speaking of quince In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm trying to find pictures of the flower buds in the winter but here's an interesting quote: /The flowers are not from fruit buds formed in the autumn; after a woody shoot has grown several inches, a flower is produced which terminates the season's growth of that shoot.// / https://books.google.com/books?id=47gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=cydonia+flower+buds&source=bl&ots=q8Vj_w14rA&sig=u76ao6L-lYbf76R8xtK-DJSaLWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7e31rsjRAhWr6YMKHYjKDew4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=cydonia%20flower%20buds&f=false So that makes it sound like there are no flower buds during the winter - that they would only form in the spring after growth has begun. So why am I not getting flowers?? Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 1/16/2017 6:20 PM, Richard Moyer wrote: > Jay, > Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in > water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for > us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and > rust pressure. > > Richard Moyer > Russell Co., SW VA > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From marillen at earthlink.net Tue Jan 17 09:10:34 2017 From: marillen at earthlink.net (Anton Callaway) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:10:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nafex] Speaking of quince Message-ID: <161991.2054.1484662234970@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jay, That quoted text is poorly written and confusing, in my opinion. Quince flower formation is much like their apple and pear relatives. It is true that there is a greater tendency for terminal flowers and solitary flowers compared to apples and pears, but the fat flower buds form on previous year's wood, so there are flower buds in the winter. They look fatter than vegetative buds. I removed my last C. oblonga, so I can't send a picture. Are your trees growing vigourously? Maybe they just haven't set flower buds yet. Your climate should be pretty similar to mine, so I don't think the winters would be harsh enough to wipe out the flower buds. Precocity does seem to vary widely by cultivar and nitrogen availability. Best regards, Anton Piedmont, NC -----Original Message----- >From: Jay Cutts >Sent: Jan 16, 2017 11:46 PM >To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >Subject: Re: [nafex] Speaking of quince > >I'm trying to find pictures of the flower buds in the winter but here's >an interesting quote: > >/The flowers are not from fruit buds formed in the autumn; after a woody >shoot has grown several inches, a flower is produced which terminates >the season's growth of that shoot.// >/ >https://books.google.com/books?id=47gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=cydonia+flower+buds&source=bl&ots=q8Vj_w14rA&sig=u76ao6L-lYbf76R8xtK-DJSaLWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7e31rsjRAhWr6YMKHYjKDew4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=cydonia%20flower%20buds&f=false > >So that makes it sound like there are no flower buds during the winter - >that they would only form in the spring after growth has begun. So why >am I not getting flowers?? > >Regards, > >Jay > >Jay Cutts >Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >(505)-281-0684 >10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > >On 1/16/2017 6:20 PM, Richard Moyer wrote: >> Jay, >> Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in >> water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for >> us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and >> rust pressure. >> >> Richard Moyer >> Russell Co., SW VA >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >__________________ >nafex mailing list >nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From maxwelldm at eastlink.ca Tue Jan 17 10:41:40 2017 From: maxwelldm at eastlink.ca (maxwelldm at eastlink.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:41:40 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Quince fruiting Message-ID: <587E3B34.10406.A6EADE@maxwelldm.eastlink.ca> I have lost track of how this works, so forgive me if things go astray. I know nothing about the biology of quince trees. But I planted a 2 year-old Quince of Portugal in my orchard in Nova Scotia, (zone 5b), 6 years ago. It grew a good 3 ft. that first year, No fruit in year 2, (3'rd leaf). Next year, (4'th leaf) produced 12 one pound fruits. Following year 24 lb. of fruit, next year 36 lb, and this past year 42 lb.. No diseases of any sort, no insect attack of any sort. Just grows and fruits in abundance. An interesting sidelight on this is that it was apparently usual for farmsteads (at least locally) to have one or two quince trees planted near the house, to supply the pectin for fall canning activities. I am aware of a couple of old farms locally where the old quince trees, (no longer named) continue to grow adjacent to the 100 year-old farmhouse, so it is obviously not unusual. I do not believe we have CAR in this area. (We do have heavy scab pressure, being right on the water. But the quince seems completely immune to apple scab.) Now, to the question of what flower buds look like. I have no "book knowledge", but have gone out to look at my tree. It is very apparent that there are no clear flower buds, in the manner of apples. (On an apple tree, it is obvious what is a vergatative bud, and what will be a flower this spring). I do not know whether there is some means of including pictures in this listserv, but if it is felt to be useful, if somebody wants to give me guidance, I can post a picture. But, basically, my interpretation, (and again, I emphasize that I know nothing, and can only go on my own observations and interpretation), is that the Google entry is actually pretty accurate. I have looked at a spur where a fruit developed last year - a short (2") stub, with the scar where the fruit dehisced, at the end. This stub has a dormant bud towards the base,, followed by 3 short "sprouts" towards the distal end, each with 3 or 4 buds, with 2 of these buds being closely grouped at the tips. There is nothing which looks clearly like a flower vs, fruit bud - all the buds are small and fairly tightly applied to the stem. But I am reasonable sure that what happens in the spring is that one of the two buds at the terninal end of each of these twigs grows for a couple of inches, then produces a flower bud, which then blooms, terminating the growth on that particular twig. The other adjacent bud may or may not also grow out, and if it does do so, it does not terminate in a blossom, but makes a new branch. So, my observation would suggest that there really are no flower buds visible on the the previous year's growth, and that the flowers are produced in the spring from new wood which has grown in the very early part of the seqason, (ie. on the current year's growth). From jimfruth at charter.net Wed Jan 18 15:29:06 2017 From: jimfruth at charter.net (Jim Fruth) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:29:06 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Sib C peach seed Message-ID: <8EBE53328B904FFEB4AD515115069A36@OwnerPC> Does anyone need some? They are available in Hong Kong. From mlevine at umich.edu Thu Jan 26 14:18:21 2017 From: mlevine at umich.edu (Mike Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:18:21 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jesuit Pear Message-ID: Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of Taste. https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there: http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html thanks, Mike Levine Ann Arbor, MI www.natureandnurtureseeds.com Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 16:29:45 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:29:45 -0500 Subject: [nafex] NAFEX/NNGA annual meeting 2017 Message-ID: We have space available for 40 additional speakers. Mark your calendars now and plan to attend. *2017 ANNUAL CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS * The North American Fruit Explorers and the Northern Nut Growers Association announce their joint conference (annual meeting) which will be held at the University of Georgia, Tifton Conference Center, from Sunday, August 13 through Wednesday, August 16, 2017. Participants will be able to attend both nut and fruit sessions for the registration fee. Members receive a discount, while the registration fee will entitle non-members to one year?s free on-line membership in either the NNGA or NAFEX. A listing of the presenters, registration information, discounted hotel accommodations, and travel information will be posted on our web sites, www.nafex.org and www.nutgrowing.org by mid-February. Here is the proposed agenda: Board meetings will be held on Sunday morning. Registration will take place on Sunday afternoon, followed by a Welcome Buffet Dinner. At 7:00 PM we will have a Show and Tell Session, where members can talk about their nut and fruit growing experiences. Monday and Tuesday are devoted to scientific and technical presentations on growing nuts and fruits. There will be presentations on other agricultural crops and on marketing strategies. A wide variety of speakers will be invited including researchers, commercial growers, and backyard enthusiasts. There will be concurrent presentations, along with Open Space and breakout sessions. You may attend sessions on the subjects of your choice. Monday evening will feature our annual auction. This is a great way to have fun while raising money for the research efforts of both organizations. It is also an opportunity to advertise your product to a captive audience. Hand made donations, seedlings, nuts and fruits, baked goods, and unique products for this event are needed. Tuesday evening?s theme is ?Georgia on My Mind?, with traditional Southern food and entertainment. We will conclude the business meeting, which opened on Monday morning, select the ?Big Nut? for the year, and enjoy an evening of socialization. Wednesday will be devoted to a tour of the University of Georgia?s experimental plantings; the Future Farmstead, which is an energy independent experimental farm and farmstead; the USDA station in Byron Georgia; and the Fort Valley Agricultural College. At the end of the tour, we will have dinner at the scenic Horse Creek Winery in Sparks, Georgia. Separate activities are planned for CAP (Companions Alternate Program) for the spouses and those accompanying members. Among these is the trip to the Georgia Museum of Agriculture in Tifton. The goal is to have something for everyone. CALL FOR PAPERS We have 30 to 40 minute time slots for the formal presentations on Monday and Tuesday. Show and Tell talks can be anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes. We welcome your contribution as a speaker. PowerPoint (AV) projectors will be available. If you would like to offer a presentation or a less formal talk, please contact our Conference Program Director, Prof. Michele Warmund at warmundm at missouri.edu. For other questions or information, contact Jerry Henkin, Chair of the 2017 NAFEX/NNGA Conference, at sproutnut at aol.com, (914) 282 ? 1371. From qazingulaza at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 16:46:05 2017 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:46:05 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Jesuit Pear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The pear repository has a number of cultivars listed called Mission pears which is listed as a synonym in the article you posted. They look to have a different shape than the photo of the fruit in the article but who knows. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?accid=%20PI+617580 ~mIEKAL On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Levine wrote: > Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor > Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the > location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other > useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of > Taste. > > https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear > > And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there: > http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html > > > thanks, > Mike Levine > Ann Arbor, MI > www.natureandnurtureseeds.com > Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From growyourown at earthlink.net Thu Jan 26 18:19:11 2017 From: growyourown at earthlink.net (mark wessel) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:19:11 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Jesuit Pear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E2BCF76-79F7-415C-9689-B5CA4450E7C0@earthlink.net> Looks very much like a seckle. > On Jan 26, 2017, at 4:46 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > The pear repository has a number of cultivars listed called Mission > pears which is listed as a synonym in the article you posted. They > look to have a different shape than the photo of the fruit in the > article but who knows. > > https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?accid=%20PI+617580 > > ~mIEKAL > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Levine wrote: >> Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor >> Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the >> location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other >> useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of >> Taste. >> >> https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear >> >> And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there: >> http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html >> >> >> thanks, >> Mike Levine >> Ann Arbor, MI >> www.natureandnurtureseeds.com >> Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex From jwlehmantree at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 09:19:06 2017 From: jwlehmantree at gmail.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:19:06 -0500 Subject: [nafex] =?utf-8?b?0LTQtdGA0LXQstGP0L3QvdGL0LUg0YfQtdGA0LXQvdC6?= =?utf-8?b?0Lgg0L/RgNC+0YHQuNC7?= In-Reply-To: <04b101d2785d$0b069c80$2113d580$@prtcnet.org> References: <04b101d2785d$0b069c80$2113d580$@prtcnet.org> Message-ID: <466f029c-05cc-497e-af06-8a6cef8eba92@gmail.com> Holy shit Batman! 98 different varieties of various species, unbelievable. Are they establishing a fruiting botanical repository? They have ordered before so apparently they have the ability to pay. I'm quite certain MB 3 is not a hybrid, rather an open pollinated seedling of Morris Burton that John Gordon selected from seeds he planted. I have it here and I'm not impressed because it is very late. Some of the fruit is still on the ground and I don't see much deer activity around it, nothing like deer Candy although location could have a bearing. The fruit is large and colorful flavor good but I do not believe it's a hybrid. In fact I'm planning on cutting my tree down to make space for pawpaws. I really question many persimmon that are being called hybrids. For example I've seen it claimed that Keener is a hybrid, and I don't see it. Anyway! Below is the list of material he has requested that I can help you with if you don't have it. 275-69 and 275-70 is in very short supply as they are located next to the driveway going straight back to the orchard and in shade part of the day. I plan on grafting it here this spring which will require my holding at least one stick of wood for myself of each. I wonder if 250-48 is a mistake, someone getting the numbers mixed up. I do have such a tree but I don't recall calling attention to it. Just checked my field notes, generally it is average to large but none of the notes say exceptional taste. I hate to start distributing average material if the buyer believes it is superior. If he is just looking for genetic diversity then that would be okay. It is a Davis X SN-15 cross. Jerry On 1/27/2017 12:20 AM, England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard and NUrsery wrote: > > PAWPAWS: > > 1. 250-39; > > 2. 250-48; > > 3. 275-48; > > .4. 250-30; > > 5. 275-17; > > 28. 275-56; > > 42. 275-69; > > 43. 275-70; > > PERSIMMONS ? Virginiana (V): > > 44. H-120 (V); > > 45. Lena / Mitchellena (V); > > 46. Mohler (V); > > 47. 100-47 (V); > > 48. NC-10 (V); > > 49. U20A Celebrity (V); > > 50. Wonderful (V); > > PERSIMMONS - Hybrids Virginiana X Kaki (V x K): > > 50. Morris Burton # 3 (V x K); > >