From jolyn at tctwest.net Fri May 1 00:07:28 2015 From: jolyn at tctwest.net (Jolyn) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 22:07:28 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Anyone know where to buy small quantities of B.118 (aka. Bud.118) apple rootstock? Looking for 1 or 2 sticks. In-Reply-To: <20150426000616.GA4757@arcanum.localdomain.local> References: <20150424144354.GA5578@arcanum.localdomain.local><553BD3BC.9000708@mebtel.net> <20150426000616.GA4757@arcanum.localdomain.local> Message-ID: <8752A769CE5843189D05C0CC0FCD00D7@JolynPC> Burnt Ridge Nursery appears to have Bud 118 rootstock. -----Original Message----- From: Andre Pierre Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:06 PM To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [nafex] Anyone know where to buy small quantities of B.118 (aka. Bud.118) apple rootstock? Looking for 1 or 2 sticks. Hi Elizabeth, Thanks for the pointer. They were my first go to, but unfortunately they're out of stock this year. The other nurseries I've found seem to be geared towards larger growers. I'll keep looking. Thanks again for your help. :-) Andre On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 01:49:48PM -0400, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote: > Cummins Nursery appears to stock it: > http://www.cumminsnursery.com/rootstocks.htm > > On 4/24/2015 10:43 AM, Andre Pierre wrote: > >Thanks in advance for info. > > > >:-) > > > >Andre Pierre > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > -- "First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From sam.brungardt at state.mn.us Fri May 1 12:21:29 2015 From: sam.brungardt at state.mn.us (Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 16:21:29 +0000 Subject: [nafex] 'Apple detective' discovers long-lost fruit variety (the 'Nero' apple) Message-ID: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> 'Apple detective' discovers long-lost fruit variety The Spokesman Review His passion for fruit started after a neighbor in Chattaroy introduced him to century-old apple trees still growing on a homestead in north Spokane ... From loneroc1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 14:22:25 2015 From: loneroc1 at gmail.com (Steve Herje) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 13:22:25 -0500 Subject: [nafex] 'Apple detective' discovers long-lost fruit variety (the 'Nero' apple) In-Reply-To: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> References: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> Message-ID: Now if someone could find the lost central Wisconsin apple 'Gem City' Steve H. Lone Rock WI On May 1, 2015 11:37 AM, "Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)" wrote: > 'Apple detective' discovers long-lost fruit variety< > https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/apr/30/apple-detective-discovers-long-lost-fruit-variety/&ct=ga&cd=CAEYBCoTNDE0NDAxNjk1MjM4MDUyNjMyNjIaZGZlMDEyNzc3YmU4NDVhNjpjb206ZW46VVM&usg=AFQjCNGxMCnJjUh6BtdIgRYMLKbGXwV2ow > > > The Spokesman Review > His passion for fruit started after a neighbor in Chattaroy introduced him > to century-old apple trees still growing on a homestead in north Spokane ... > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From ehilborn at mebtel.net Fri May 1 17:50:08 2015 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 17:50:08 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Any tricks to ID female persimmon seedlings? In-Reply-To: References: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> Message-ID: <5543F510.3070001@mebtel.net> Hi folks, I just planted many of the seeds collected from my Yates persimmon last fall. Is there anyway to ID females before I have to set them out in their permanent site? I tried to search my NAFEX posts as I seem to remember someone (was it Jerry?) mentioning that males are the more vigorous seedlings. Is that actionable knowledge, or has it been disproven? Betsy Hilborn 7a NC From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Fri May 1 20:24:00 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:24:00 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Any tricks to ID female persimmon seedlings? In-Reply-To: <5543F510.3070001@mebtel.net> References: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> <5543F510.3070001@mebtel.net> Message-ID: I found this with a Google search on sexing seedling persimmons: A good pdf on growing persimmons http://www.wildlifegrowers.com/persimmons_with_David_Osborn.pdf PDF]Persimmons - Purdue Universityhttp://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/HO-108.pdfPropagating persimmons: Germinating seeds, grafting, and transplanting http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Propagating_persimmons:_Germinating_seeds__44___grafting__44___and_transplanting/ Sex Among the Persimmons http://www.qdma.com/articles/sex-among-the-persimmons How to Tell the Sex of a Persimmon Tree by Athena Hessong, Demand Media http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tell-sex-persimmon-tree-61597.html Look at 1-year-old growth on the persimmon tree in March, and find its inconspicuous flowers. Find groups of three flowers together to identify male blossoms, which have a pink tinge. A persimmon tree with a large percentage of male flowers is male. Identify female flowers as those that grow alone and have an off-white or cream color. A majority of these kinds of flowers on the tree mean the tree is female. Spot rare, perfect flowers on the persimmon tree by finding flowers that each has a large ovary at its base and more than eight stamen in the flower's center. Perfect flowers blend aspects of male and female flowers. These types of flowers can occur on either male or female trees. Repeat identifying the tree's sex the following year to learn whether or not the tree changes the sex of flowers it bears. On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote: > Hi folks, > I just planted many of the seeds collected from my Yates persimmon last > fall. Is there anyway to ID females before I have to set them out in their > permanent site? > > I tried to search my NAFEX posts as I seem to remember someone (was it > Jerry?) mentioning that males are the more vigorous seedlings. Is that > actionable knowledge, or has it been disproven? > > Betsy Hilborn > 7a NC > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com sites.google.com/site/avantgeared plus.google.com/+Avantgeared Ello: @ecoponderosa Twitter: @ecoponderosa Reddit: ecoponderosa From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Fri May 1 20:42:42 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:42:42 -0400 Subject: [nafex] For those looking for old nafex messages: nafex list message archives are in two different places {& repost of Jerry's article on persimmon sex] Message-ID: Old nafex message archives are located here: http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/ Index of /london/NAFEX/message-archives http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/archives-by-topic/ http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/old/ New archives are here: nafex mailing list message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex these go from year 2000 to the present to find a message on a particular subject or author use this Google site: search tool: List message archive search: Google command to search the nafex list message archives: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] omit the brackets above and type this into your Google search dialog box top right on your web browser screen Ex.: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex calamondin Maybe this is th epost Elizabeth was looking for: The site: search feature bore fruit when searching for posts on persimmon sex: *Jwlehman at aol.com * Jwlehman at aol.com *Fri Nov 5 00:29:57 EST 2004* - Previous message: [NAFEX] bundles of trees from state/Cooperative Extension - Next message: [NAFEX] Determining persimmon tree's sex. - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ The question was asked: Is there any way to tell which sex persimmon trees are before they have grown large enough to flower? I have one that has been in the ground for 2 summers now and I still have not seen any flowers, at least none large enough that I have noticed them yet. I hope to take most of the other trees I have out to the country where I have 5 acres, but it would be nice to plant 1 more tree at home and get fruit there as well. The answer is no, the sex of an American persimmon tree cannot be determined until it flowers. Typically many males flower by their 5th year, some as early as three years. The females typically take an additional 2 years. But it is not unusual for female trees to bear fruit in it's fourth leaf from seed. Especially if in very fertile soil with full sun. Transplanting larger trees doesn't speed the process up very much as it is my experience it usually takes them two years to reestablish their root system. Persimmon are as easy to graft as apples. Plant the seed where you want them and graft in place. There is great genetic diversity in persimmon and grafting to known cultivars is highly recommended. Jerry Lehman ------------------------------ -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com sites.google.com/site/avantgeared plus.google.com/+Avantgeared Ello: @ecoponderosa Twitter: @ecoponderosa Reddit: ecoponderosa From ehilborn at mebtel.net Sat May 2 00:01:01 2015 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 00:01:01 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Any tricks to ID female persimmon seedlings? In-Reply-To: References: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE4AB@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net><5543F510.3070001@mebtel.net> Message-ID: <55444BFD.7060709@mebtel.net> Thank you Lawrence. I was trying to find a method to ID sex before they first flowered at year 6 or so... Thank you also for the search info. Betsy On 5/1/2015 8:24 PM, Lawrence London wrote: > I found this with a Google search on sexing seedling persimmons: > > A good pdf on growing persimmons > http://www.wildlifegrowers.com/persimmons_with_David_Osborn.pdf > PDF]Persimmons - Purdue > Universityhttp://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/HO-108.pdfPropagating > persimmons: Germinating seeds, grafting, and transplanting > http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Propagating_persimmons:_Germinating_seeds__44___grafting__44___and_transplanting/ > > > Sex Among the Persimmons > http://www.qdma.com/articles/sex-among-the-persimmons > > How to Tell the Sex of a Persimmon Tree by Athena Hessong, Demand Media > http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tell-sex-persimmon-tree-61597.html > > Look at 1-year-old growth on the persimmon tree in March, and find its > inconspicuous flowers. > > Find groups of three flowers together to identify male blossoms, which have > a pink tinge. A persimmon tree with a large percentage of male flowers is > male. > > Identify female flowers as those that grow alone and have an off-white or > cream color. A majority of these kinds of flowers on the tree mean the tree > is female. > > Spot rare, perfect flowers on the persimmon tree by finding flowers that > each has a large ovary at its base and more than eight stamen in the > flower's center. Perfect flowers blend aspects of male and female flowers. > These types of flowers can occur on either male or female trees. > > Repeat identifying the tree's sex the following year to learn whether or > not the tree changes the sex of flowers it bears. > > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn > wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> I just planted many of the seeds collected from my Yates persimmon last >> fall. Is there anyway to ID females before I have to set them out in their >> permanent site? >> >> I tried to search my NAFEX posts as I seem to remember someone (was it >> Jerry?) mentioning that males are the more vigorous seedlings. Is that >> actionable knowledge, or has it been disproven? >> >> Betsy Hilborn >> 7a NC >> __________________ >> >> >> From list at ginda.us Sat May 2 13:59:36 2015 From: list at ginda.us (Ginda Fisher) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 13:59:36 -0400 Subject: [nafex] update on "long summer yellow apple" Message-ID: You might recall that last year I wanted to rescue an apple tree my uncle grew from a seedling. It has no commercial potential, as the apples get soft within hours of picking them. But it is very tasty, and ripens over a very long period, a few apples a day, which is a nice trait in a backyard. The only time I had access to the tree was during (or maybe right after) bloom. So I travelled up to there, cut some very large branches that had (what looked like) graftable twigs, stripped all the leaves off them, put them in a plastic garbage bag, and brought them home. I grafted them late in the afternoon of the day I cut them. Rather to my surprise, most of the grafts took. One graft to a seedling crab that I didn't adequately protect from drying out died, and the one graft I made to G11 also failed. But all three grafts I made to M7 succeeded, as did another graft to a random crab-apple. So now I have two cleft grafts and a bud graft (on M7) just breaking bud on potted trees. All of the rootstocks seem to be waking up this year, despite a lot of predation from rabbits last year. None of them ever got a lot of leaves, so I hope they do okay. I have obtained better rabbit fencing for them this spring. I have a couple of questions about the chip-bud. I actually put three chips on one rootstock. The bottom one seems not to have taken, the middle one looks alive, but dormant, and the top one is at green tip, and looks healthy. A lot of other buds from the stock have also started to sprout. I've been pinching off anything above the graft, including a twig I let grow last year to keep the rootstock alive. Should I pinch off ALL the other bud sprouting? Or let the lower ones be for now? Also, The chip that is sprouting is near the top of the plant, and above it is an ugly dead stump. The leader died back to a little above the living chip, which is opposite a set of buds from the rootstock, which I broke off this spring, but allowed to grow last year. Should I just leave it alone? Should I ever try to clean that up? If so, how do I do that, and when do I do it? Thanks, Ginda Fisher eastern MA, where spring has spring with a vengeance, after a long, snowy winter. From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Sat May 2 17:31:45 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:31:45 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Why this list rules! Re: For those looking for old nafex messages: nafex list message archives are in two different places {& repost of Jerry's article on persimmon sex] Message-ID: <20150502143145.DDED1B10@m0005310.ppops.net> Why this list rules! Our esteemed host just provided an example of why this technology is so very useful. It is not just the search capability but the way you can easily bring up the entire thread once you locate an entry of interest. I am always amazed at how fast this technology is relative to other forums. I use the search feature extensively and mine gem after gem form the archives. Thank you, Larry. tfb --- lfljvenaura at gmail.com wrote: From: Lawrence London To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio Subject: [nafex] For those looking for old nafex messages: nafex list message archives are in two different places {& repost of Jerry's article on persimmon sex] Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:42:42 -0400 Old nafex message archives are located here: http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/ Index of /london/NAFEX/message-archives http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/archives-by-topic/ http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/old/ New archives are here: nafex mailing list message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex these go from year 2000 to the present to find a message on a particular subject or author use this Google site: search tool: List message archive search: Google command to search the nafex list message archives: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] omit the brackets above and type this into your Google search dialog box top right on your web browser screen Ex.: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex calamondin Maybe this is th epost Elizabeth was looking for: The site: search feature bore fruit when searching for posts on persimmon sex: *Jwlehman at aol.com * Jwlehman at aol.com *Fri Nov 5 00:29:57 EST 2004* - Previous message: [NAFEX] bundles of trees from state/Cooperative Extension - Next message: [NAFEX] Determining persimmon tree's sex. - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ The question was asked: Is there any way to tell which sex persimmon trees are before they have grown large enough to flower? I have one that has been in the ground for 2 summers now and I still have not seen any flowers, at least none large enough that I have noticed them yet. I hope to take most of the other trees I have out to the country where I have 5 acres, but it would be nice to plant 1 more tree at home and get fruit there as well. The answer is no, the sex of an American persimmon tree cannot be determined until it flowers. Typically many males flower by their 5th year, some as early as three years. The females typically take an additional 2 years. But it is not unusual for female trees to bear fruit in it's fourth leaf from seed. Especially if in very fertile soil with full sun. Transplanting larger trees doesn't speed the process up very much as it is my experience it usually takes them two years to reestablish their root system. Persimmon are as easy to graft as apples. Plant the seed where you want them and graft in place. There is great genetic diversity in persimmon and grafting to known cultivars is highly recommended. Jerry Lehman ------------------------------ -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com sites.google.com/site/avantgeared plus.google.com/+Avantgeared Ello: @ecoponderosa Twitter: @ecoponderosa Reddit: ecoponderosa __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Sat May 2 17:31:56 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:31:56 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Why this list rules! Re: For those looking for old nafex messages: nafex list message archives are in two different places {& repost of Jerry's article on persimmon sex] Message-ID: <20150502143156.DDED1BEF@m0005310.ppops.net> Why this list rules! Our esteemed host just provided an example of why this technology is so very useful. It is not just the search capability but the way you can easily bring up the entire thread once you locate an entry of interest. I am always amazed at how fast this technology is relative to other forums. I use the search feature extensively and mine gem after gem from the archives. Thank you, Larry. tfb --- lfljvenaura at gmail.com wrote: From: Lawrence London To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio Subject: [nafex] For those looking for old nafex messages: nafex list message archives are in two different places {& repost of Jerry's article on persimmon sex] Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:42:42 -0400 Old nafex message archives are located here: http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/ Index of /london/NAFEX/message-archives http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/archives-by-topic/ http://www.ibiblio.org/london/NAFEX/message-archives/old/ New archives are here: nafex mailing list message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex these go from year 2000 to the present to find a message on a particular subject or author use this Google site: search tool: List message archive search: Google command to search the nafex list message archives: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] omit the brackets above and type this into your Google search dialog box top right on your web browser screen Ex.: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex calamondin Maybe this is th epost Elizabeth was looking for: The site: search feature bore fruit when searching for posts on persimmon sex: *Jwlehman at aol.com * Jwlehman at aol.com *Fri Nov 5 00:29:57 EST 2004* - Previous message: [NAFEX] bundles of trees from state/Cooperative Extension - Next message: [NAFEX] Determining persimmon tree's sex. - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ The question was asked: Is there any way to tell which sex persimmon trees are before they have grown large enough to flower? I have one that has been in the ground for 2 summers now and I still have not seen any flowers, at least none large enough that I have noticed them yet. I hope to take most of the other trees I have out to the country where I have 5 acres, but it would be nice to plant 1 more tree at home and get fruit there as well. The answer is no, the sex of an American persimmon tree cannot be determined until it flowers. Typically many males flower by their 5th year, some as early as three years. The females typically take an additional 2 years. But it is not unusual for female trees to bear fruit in it's fourth leaf from seed. Especially if in very fertile soil with full sun. Transplanting larger trees doesn't speed the process up very much as it is my experience it usually takes them two years to reestablish their root system. Persimmon are as easy to graft as apples. Plant the seed where you want them and graft in place. There is great genetic diversity in persimmon and grafting to known cultivars is highly recommended. Jerry Lehman ------------------------------ -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com sites.google.com/site/avantgeared plus.google.com/+Avantgeared Ello: @ecoponderosa Twitter: @ecoponderosa Reddit: ecoponderosa __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Sat May 2 17:47:11 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:47:11 -0700 Subject: [nafex] sigh - my previous comment Message-ID: <20150502144711.DDED1BAE@m0005310.ppops.net> Lawrence not Larry :( _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Sat May 2 18:21:52 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 18:21:52 -0400 Subject: [nafex] OT: Google+ Is Being Phased Out Slowly. What This Means for Bloggers (and list members) http://awesomelytechie.com/google-plus-phased-out-bloggers/ | Was: Re: sigh - my previous comment Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, fuwa fuwa usagi wrote: > Lawrence not Larry :( > > Thanks, Fluffy, how did you know :-) never liked Larry. A 60's friend, RIP, companion on the hot and dusty trail & Woody Guthrie admirer renamed me Larindranarth Lama for my interest in Tibetan culture and the Indian mystic Sri Ramakrishna. Dirtfarmer suits me. I expect this event will either increase traffic in and appreciation of ibiblio's mailing lists (thanks ibiblio!) or drive more into the wasteland of farcebook. The nafex list uses Google Groups for archive mirroring and Sites for extra list info and resources so I do not think we will be affected. For those in the list who have Blogger blogs or Google+ pages here is an update and good advice: Google+ Is Being Phased Out Slowly. What This Means for Bloggers http://awesomelytechie.com/google-plus-phased-out-bloggers/ Google may be slowly phasing out all its social media. This means that Blogger and Google+ will go away. This will be good for Ello and those who still run email-based (mailing lists) discussion forums. Non tech/industry web forums will not likely fill the gap because of the interface. For Ello users I am hoping Ello developers will implement new and useful features that directly replace the most valuable ones in Google+. Topical or group accounts are available. I grabbed @ellofarm. Maybe someone here would start @ellofruitandnut. Here's more: Google+ Is Being Phased Out Slowly. What This Means for Bloggers http://awesomelytechie.com/google-plus-phased-out-bloggers/ "Google Plus came on the scene, and we all collectively tilted our heads trying to figure out what a circle had to do with anything. Since its debut, early adopters have tried to convince us that Google+ was fetch, especially for bloggers. However, the word on the Internet streets is that the big G is phasing out its social network. This means Google+ will be dissolving into two separate entities: Google Photos and Google Hangouts." "1. Diversify your traffic sources For the handful of you who have sung Google+?s praises at conferences and to your blogger friends about how much traffic you get from it, it?s time to spread your traffic around a bit. You should never rely on just one site or one source of traffic for your blog anyway, especially one as wishy-washy as Google, since it seems like they change the rules every single day. Start ramping up your efforts and your presence on other social networks. Some of the same people who you?ve connected with there are elsewhere online too. 2. Migrate to WordPress With the news of Google+ shutting down, there?s been chatter about what Google product is next to get the axe. Good ol? Blogger could very well be the next to get the boot. You?ve probably been told that you need to move over from Blogger to WordPress for a host of different reasons, but this should light the fire under you. As a newbie blogger, the Blogger platform is a great start. But if 2015 is the year to step your game up, you have to move on to bigger and better things. A self-hosted WordPress site allows you the freedom to do more with your site than you could under Google?s strict terms of service and platform limitations. 3. Export your data Because I was never sold on Google+, I never truly built out an audience on there. I posted links and a couple pictures, but that was it. However, if you?ve been busy, be sure to export your assets. Although the network will be splitting in two (Google Photos and Google Stream), if you plan on learning the ropes for both, you may be fine. However, things like your Insights for your brand?s page, you?ll want to capture those numbers so that you still have something to show for future partnerships. 4. Use Google?s other products The fact of that matter is, Google is still the Magic Konch of the Internet. So just because this product is going away doesn?t mean you can?t benefit from others. Become more familiar with Google Analytics, start vlogging on YouTube, and play around with Hangouts. Those are products that Google has an easier time convincing people that they work, because they do. What you were achieving on this network, you can achieve on the other. As of right now, there?s no definite shut down date for Google+. But you should start your strategy to move on from it now rather than later. You don?t want to be the one who gets dumped." -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com sites.google.com/site/avantgeared plus.google.com/+Avantgeared Ello: @ecoponderosa Twitter: @ecoponderosa Reddit: ecoponderosa From bluestem_farm at juno.com Mon May 4 09:45:06 2015 From: bluestem_farm at juno.com (Scott Weber and Muffy Barrett) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 13:45:06 GMT Subject: [nafex] 'gem city apple Message-ID: <20150504.084506.7375.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com> Steve, Do you have any sort of a description for Gem City? Muffy Barrett ---------- Original Message ---------- Now if someone could find the lost central Wisconsin apple 'Gem City' Steve H. Lone Rock WI ____________________________________________________________ NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1 From pxbacher at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:56:38 2015 From: pxbacher at gmail.com (Peter Chrisbacher) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:56:38 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Cherry Grafts Message-ID: A few weeks ago I emailed the group that I'd grafted some cherry scions on a back yard Pin Cherry (which I'd previously thought was a choke cherry). Yesterday I noticed that the branch I'd grafted onto seems to be having significant issues; some side branches are failing to leaf out, and others are partly leafing out, but not looking very healthy. It occurred to me that the cause of these issues might be 1) That branch had issues prior to my grafting onto it, or 2) My grafting onto that branch caused its issues (virus? some other impact?) Has anyone seen anything similar with cherry grafts? Is it more likely the branch just had issues? It seemed reasonably healthy last year, and I don't *think" I took so much off that it would have caused such a significant impact to the rest of the branch, though I could be wrong (I've not tried top working a tree like this before). How likely is it the scions carried some type of disease that is now moving through the tree? Thanks Pete Chrisbacher Wilmington, DE From sam.brungardt at state.mn.us Mon May 4 15:55:04 2015 From: sam.brungardt at state.mn.us (Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 19:55:04 +0000 Subject: [nafex] 'gem city apple In-Reply-To: <20150504.084506.7375.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com> References: <20150504.084506.7375.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FE839@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> This is from the Annual Report of the Wisconsin State Horticultural Society for the year 1905: By Wm. Toole, Baraboo. The original tree of the Gem City (Townsend) apple was a chance seedling which came up close to the house of Mr. Charles Dickinson, now dead, whose farm was near Dodgeville. The young tree being in, the way, was cut down twice, but the third growth was allowed to stay until it had borne fruit. XT. George Townsend of Baraboo, while visiting with Mr. Diekinson, was much attracted by the fruit, believing that it was a seedling of more than ordinary promise. Mr. Town- send seems to be the only one who realized at that time the possi- ble value of the apple. He procured some scions and eighteen or twenty years ago planted two young trees in his orchard from this grafting. These trees seemed to be as hardy as any of the Russian varieties of which this orchard largely consists. Mr. Townsend distributed young trees of his own grafting to various persons, among them A. D. Brown and Mrs. Robert Ramsey, who exhibited from trees about fifteen years old, the fruit which attracted so much attention at the winter meeting of the Wisconsin State Horticultural Society in Madison, Feb- ruary 9, 1905. Each of these growers speak of it as a better grower than the Fameuse with larger fruit, apparently as hare as any, an early and good bearer, an all winter keeper of high- est quality, and in texture of skin and flesh, appears to be a seedling of the Fameuse. The foregoing cover the main facts which I can get. No one at Dodgeville seems to feel any interest in the apple and if it had not been for Mr. Townsend, it would have been lost to the world. Mr. A. D. Brown has taken great interest in the apple and takes it up as his specialty, now that Mr. Townsend is gone. -----Original Message----- From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weber and Muffy Barrett Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:45 AM To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [nafex] 'gem city apple Steve, Do you have any sort of a description for Gem City? Muffy Barrett ---------- Original Message ---------- Now if someone could find the lost central Wisconsin apple 'Gem City' Steve H. Lone Rock WI ____________________________________________________________ NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1 __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From pete_tallman at hotmail.com Mon May 4 22:45:30 2015 From: pete_tallman at hotmail.com (Pete Tallman) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 20:45:30 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November Message-ID: For several years I have been claiming that 'Niwot' black raspberry is hardy for Longmont, Colorado (front range), zone 5. November 2014 has proven to be its downfall. Niwot canes did not survive the transition from 64 degrees in early November to minus 4 a few days later before the canes had a chance to go completely dormant. (Newspaper said minus 13, but my thermometer only got down to minus 4.) No growth is evident in the over-wintered Niwot canes, so there will be no floricane berries this year. (Jewel black raspberry is similarly impacted.) New Niwot primocanes are now emerging to (fingers crossed) give a good primocane crop in August. A lot of my apple trees were severely damaged or lost, although a few apple varieties seem to be attempting a full crop, like Yellow Transparent, McIntosh, and Almata. Losses are way beyond anything I've experienced here before. Cherry trees are mostly gone. (I have one cherry with a few blossoms on it, but several other trees are completely gone.) Blueberries are severely impacted. Reka and Elliott blueberries look mostly OK for blossoms, but others look pretty bad as far as blossoms go, although most of the blueberries are attempting to start new growth on vegetative buds. There is not likely to be blueberry pies this year. Swenson Red grape doesn't look like it made it, but Petite Jewel and Somerset grapes look OK.? Pete Tallman Longmont, CO? Colorado front range From loneroc1 at gmail.com Mon May 4 23:01:30 2015 From: loneroc1 at gmail.com (Steve Herje) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 22:01:30 -0500 Subject: [nafex] 'gem city' apple Message-ID: Thanks Sam! Sky High (or is it Ski-Hi?) orchard near Baraboo used to grow the tree when the current owner was a little girl in the fifties. I asked her about it around ten years ago and she said that they'd cut out all the trees a while back. It was a busy fall day and I could tell that the conversation didn't interest her. I thought Gem City sounded cool when I saw an article about the orchard in an old newspaper. It was a human interest story about how the above lady could identify all fifty cultivars in the orchard by taste or smell or something (it's been a while;-) The article said that the Gem had been a major apple in the orchard at the turn of the last century. Find me a commercial orchard with fifty varieties these days. Steve H. On May 4, 2015 3:11 PM, "Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)" wrote: > This is from the Annual Report of the Wisconsin State Horticultural > Society for the year 1905: > > By Wm. Toole, Baraboo. > The original tree of the Gem City (Townsend) apple was a > chance seedling which came up close to the house of Mr. Charles > Dickinson, now dead, whose farm was near Dodgeville. > The young tree being in, the way, was cut down twice, but > the third growth was allowed to stay until it had borne fruit. > XT. George Townsend of Baraboo, while visiting with Mr. > Diekinson, was much attracted by the fruit, believing that it > was a seedling of more than ordinary promise. Mr. Town- > send seems to be the only one who realized at that time the possi- > ble value of the apple. He procured some scions and eighteen or > twenty years ago planted two young trees in his orchard from > this grafting. These trees seemed to be as hardy as any of > the Russian varieties of which this orchard largely consists. > Mr. Townsend distributed young trees of his own grafting to > various persons, among them A. D. Brown and Mrs. Robert > Ramsey, who exhibited from trees about fifteen years old, the > fruit which attracted so much attention at the winter meeting > of the Wisconsin State Horticultural Society in Madison, Feb- > ruary 9, 1905. Each of these growers speak of it as a better > grower than the Fameuse with larger fruit, apparently as hare > as any, an early and good bearer, an all winter keeper of high- > est quality, and in texture of skin and flesh, appears to be a > seedling of the Fameuse. > The foregoing cover the main facts which I can get. No > one at Dodgeville seems to feel any interest in the apple and > if it had not been for Mr. Townsend, it would have been lost to > the world. Mr. A. D. Brown has taken great interest in the > apple and takes it up as his specialty, now that Mr. Townsend > is gone. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Scott > Weber and Muffy Barrett > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:45 AM > To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [nafex] 'gem city apple > > Steve, Do you have any sort of a description for Gem City? Muffy Barrett > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > > > Now if someone could find the lost central Wisconsin apple 'Gem City' > > Steve H. Lone Rock WI > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1 > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user > config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror > sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From jolyn at tctwest.net Mon May 4 23:25:58 2015 From: jolyn at tctwest.net (Jolyn) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:25:58 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My locale in South Central Montana had nearly the exact temperature drop over 48 hours in the first days of November. My fruit tree losses & damage seem to be nearly the same as you report. Swenson Red & Petite Jewel were on the ground because I changed the trellis so they are fine but many other grapes are coming from the ground. October 2013 had a radical drop in temperature as well so many hardy varieties were already stressed. Pine trees and juniper shrubs are damaged in many landscapes. Hopefully survivors will make good growth this year. Jolyn in MT -----Original Message----- From: Pete Tallman Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:45 PM To: nafex Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November For several years I have been claiming that 'Niwot' black raspberry is hardy for Longmont, Colorado (front range), zone 5. November 2014 has proven to be its downfall. Niwot canes did not survive the transition from 64 degrees in early November to minus 4 a few days later before the canes had a chance to go completely dormant. (Newspaper said minus 13, but my thermometer only got down to minus 4.) No growth is evident in the over-wintered Niwot canes, so there will be no floricane berries this year. (Jewel black raspberry is similarly impacted.) New Niwot primocanes are now emerging to (fingers crossed) give a good primocane crop in August. A lot of my apple trees were severely damaged or lost, although a few apple varieties seem to be attempting a full crop, like Yellow Transparent, McIntosh, and Almata. Losses are way beyond anything I've experienced here before. Cherry trees are mostly gone. (I have one cherry with a few blossoms on it, but several other trees are completely gone.) Blueberries are severely impacted. Reka and Elliott blueberries look mostly OK for blossoms, but others look pretty bad as far as blossoms go, although most of the blueberries are attempting to start new growth on vegetative buds. There is not likely to be blueberry pies this year. Swenson Red grape doesn't look like it made it, but Petite Jewel and Somerset grapes look OK. Pete Tallman Longmont, CO Colorado front range __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From ckennel at gmail.com Mon May 4 23:44:47 2015 From: ckennel at gmail.com (Christopher Kennel) Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:44:47 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D644821-62BB-405D-9AF6-FCC05C351130@gmail.com> Thanks for helping me understand why I lost several cherries, a peach and apples in Denver. In contrast, my Craig's Crimson cherry on Colt rootstock fared very well with a good set of blooms this year. I haven't assessed my grapes yet, but most of my blueberries look pretty good (sorry I don't have the variety names handy). All the best, Chris Kennel ~ sent from my phone using speech recognition, please excuse typos. > On May 4, 2015, at 9:25 PM, Jolyn wrote: > > My locale in South Central Montana had nearly the exact temperature drop over 48 hours in the first days of November. My fruit tree losses & damage seem to be nearly the same as you report. Swenson Red & Petite Jewel were on the ground because I changed the trellis so they are fine but many other grapes are coming from the ground. October 2013 had a radical drop in temperature as well so many hardy varieties were already stressed. Pine trees and juniper shrubs are damaged in many landscapes. Hopefully survivors will make good growth this year. > Jolyn in MT > > -----Original Message----- From: Pete Tallman > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:45 PM > To: nafex > Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November > > For several years I have been claiming that 'Niwot' black raspberry is hardy for Longmont, Colorado (front range), zone 5. November 2014 has proven to be its downfall. Niwot canes did not survive the transition from 64 degrees in early November to minus 4 a few days later before the canes had a chance to go completely dormant. (Newspaper said minus 13, but my thermometer only got down to minus 4.) No growth is evident in the over-wintered Niwot canes, so there will be no floricane berries this year. (Jewel black raspberry is similarly impacted.) New Niwot primocanes are now emerging to (fingers crossed) give a good primocane crop in August. A lot of my apple trees were severely damaged or lost, although a few apple varieties seem to be attempting a full crop, like Yellow Transparent, McIntosh, and Almata. Losses are way beyond anything I've experienced here before. Cherry trees are mostly gone. (I have one cherry with a few blossoms on it, but several other trees are completely gone.) Blueberries are severely impacted. Reka and Elliott blueberries look mostly OK for blossoms, but others look pretty bad as far as blossoms go, although most of the blueberries are attempting to start new growth on vegetative buds. There is not likely to be blueberry pies this year. Swenson Red grape doesn't look like it made it, but Petite Jewel and Somerset grapes look OK. > > Pete Tallman > Longmont, CO > Colorado front range > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From orders at cuttsreviews.com Tue May 5 00:16:07 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 22:16:07 -0600 Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55484407.9070804@cuttsreviews.com> Pete, Sorry to hear about all the damage you've had. Just wanted to share that here at 7000 feet in NM I've had my grape vine (don't remember the variety but it's supposed to be one of the hardier ones) appear dead after a tough winter only to send up new shoots, sometimes not until July. So don't give up on the grape. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days On 5/4/2015 8:45 PM, Pete Tallman wrote: > For several years I have been claiming that 'Niwot' black raspberry is hardy for Longmont, Colorado (front range), zone 5. November 2014 has proven to be its downfall. Niwot canes did not survive the transition from 64 degrees in early November to minus 4 a few days later before the canes had a chance to go completely dormant. (Newspaper said minus 13, but my thermometer only got down to minus 4.) No growth is evident in the over-wintered Niwot canes, so there will be no floricane berries this year. (Jewel black raspberry is similarly impacted.) New Niwot primocanes are now emerging to (fingers crossed) give a good primocane crop in August. A lot of my apple trees were severely damaged or lost, although a few apple varieties seem to be attempting a full crop, like Yellow Transparent, McIntosh, and Almata. Losses are way beyond anything I've experienced here before. Cherry trees are mostly gone. (I have one cherry with a few blossoms on it, but several other trees are completely gone.) Blueberries are severely impacted. Reka and Elliott blueberries look mostly OK for blossoms, but others look pretty bad as far as blossoms go, although most of the blueberries are attempting to start new growth on vegetative buds. There is not likely to be blueberry pies this year. Swenson Red grape doesn't look like it made it, but Petite Jewel and Somerset grapes look OK. > > Pete Tallman > Longmont, CO > Colorado front range > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > From lpittman at murraystate.edu Tue May 5 08:52:19 2015 From: lpittman at murraystate.edu (Louis Pittman) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 07:52:19 -0500 Subject: [nafex] Colorado Test Autumn in November In-Reply-To: <55484407.9070804@cuttsreviews.com> References: <55484407.9070804@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: I've been surprised with the losses here in southern west-central KY. Actually thought the winter of 2013 was worse than 2014, but the plants evidently had a different experience. Fall was fairly typical, with no unusual plummets. More snow than I've seen here in 20 years. Only a couple of nights of subzero temps - and we had 6-12 inches of snow cover at the time; unusual, in that most years, when we get into single digits or lower, there's no snow. Very sparse bloom on any apples or pears. No blooms on cherries or blueberries, and extensive winter kill on some 15+ yr old rabbiteye bushes - guess it's time for some major rejuvenative pruning! Kiowa blackberries killed back to the snow line - no berries THIS year. All pomegranates killed back to the ground; have not had a chance to figure out which ones are resprouting from the base. Mulberries unscathed. Hybrid Rosseyanka persimmon and Geneva long killed back to the rootstock (but both also had borer infestation). Haven't looked to see if any of the struggling D.kaki trees survived... suspect that if any did, Saijo will be the one. On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Pete, > > Sorry to hear about all the damage you've had. Just wanted to share that > here at 7000 feet in NM I've had my grape vine (don't remember the variety > but it's supposed to be one of the hardier ones) appear dead after a tough > winter only to send up new shoots, sometimes not until July. So don't give > up on the grape. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) > (505) 281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days > > > On 5/4/2015 8:45 PM, Pete Tallman wrote: > >> For several years I have been claiming that 'Niwot' black raspberry is >> hardy for Longmont, Colorado (front range), zone 5. November 2014 has >> proven to be its downfall. Niwot canes did not survive the transition from >> 64 degrees in early November to minus 4 a few days later before the canes >> had a chance to go completely dormant. (Newspaper said minus 13, but my >> thermometer only got down to minus 4.) No growth is evident in the >> over-wintered Niwot canes, so there will be no floricane berries this year. >> (Jewel black raspberry is similarly impacted.) New Niwot primocanes are now >> emerging to (fingers crossed) give a good primocane crop in August. A lot >> of my apple trees were severely damaged or lost, although a few apple >> varieties seem to be attempting a full crop, like Yellow Transparent, >> McIntosh, and Almata. Losses are way beyond anything I've experienced here >> before. Cherry trees are mostly gone. (I have one cherry with a few >> blossoms on it, but several other trees are comple >> > tely gone.) Blueberries are severely impacted. Reka and Elliott > blueberries look mostly OK for blossoms, but others look pretty bad as far > as blossoms go, although most of the blueberries are attempting to start > new growth on vegetative buds. There is not likely to be blueberry pies > this year. Swenson Red grape doesn't look like it made it, but Petite Jewel > and Somerset grapes look OK. > >> >> Pete Tallman >> Longmont, CO >> Colorado front range >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> >> > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From sam.brungardt at state.mn.us Tue May 5 16:48:01 2015 From: sam.brungardt at state.mn.us (Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 20:48:01 +0000 Subject: [nafex] 'gem city' apple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E4053FEB62@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> You're sure welcome, Steve. Wouldn't it be wonderful if a tree were found to be growing somewhere near the orchard or Baraboo. Slim chance that, I suppose, since all the locals may have been content to get their supply of Gem City apples from the orchard. Other than that, how are things going for you? The lilacs, daffodils, and redbuds are blooming here in St. Paul and the peonies are beginning to show their buds. I will probably retire later this year, but am worried if I'll have enough in savings and retirement pay and Social Security to live comfortably. My partner, Dick, thinks I will (but then he doesn't pay any of my personal bills). -- Sam -----Original Message----- From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Herje Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 10:02 PM To: North American Fruit Explorers Subject: Re: [nafex] 'gem city' apple Thanks Sam! Sky High (or is it Ski-Hi?) orchard near Baraboo used to grow the tree when the current owner was a little girl in the fifties. I asked her about it around ten years ago and she said that they'd cut out all the trees a while back. It was a busy fall day and I could tell that the conversation didn't interest her. I thought Gem City sounded cool when I saw an article about the orchard in an old newspaper. It was a human interest story about how the above lady could identify all fifty cultivars in the orchard by taste or smell or something (it's been a while;-) The article said that the Gem had been a major apple in the orchard at the turn of the last century. Find me a commercial orchard with fifty varieties these days. Steve H. On May 4, 2015 3:11 PM, "Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)" wrote: > This is from the Annual Report of the Wisconsin State Horticultural > Society for the year 1905: > > By Wm. Toole, Baraboo. > The original tree of the Gem City (Townsend) apple was a chance > seedling which came up close to the house of Mr. Charles Dickinson, > now dead, whose farm was near Dodgeville. > The young tree being in, the way, was cut down twice, but the third > growth was allowed to stay until it had borne fruit. > XT. George Townsend of Baraboo, while visiting with Mr. > Diekinson, was much attracted by the fruit, believing that it was a > seedling of more than ordinary promise. Mr. Town- send seems to be the > only one who realized at that time the possi- ble value of the apple. > He procured some scions and eighteen or twenty years ago planted two > young trees in his orchard from this grafting. These trees seemed to > be as hardy as any of the Russian varieties of which this orchard > largely consists. > Mr. Townsend distributed young trees of his own grafting to various > persons, among them A. D. Brown and Mrs. Robert Ramsey, who exhibited > from trees about fifteen years old, the fruit which attracted so much > attention at the winter meeting of the Wisconsin State Horticultural > Society in Madison, Feb- ruary 9, 1905. Each of these growers speak of > it as a better grower than the Fameuse with larger fruit, apparently > as hare as any, an early and good bearer, an all winter keeper of > high- est quality, and in texture of skin and flesh, appears to be a > seedling of the Fameuse. > The foregoing cover the main facts which I can get. No one at > Dodgeville seems to feel any interest in the apple and if it had not > been for Mr. Townsend, it would have been lost to the world. Mr. A. D. > Brown has taken great interest in the apple and takes it up as his > specialty, now that Mr. Townsend is gone. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nafex [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Scott Weber and Muffy Barrett > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:45 AM > To: nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [nafex] 'gem city apple > > Steve, Do you have any sort of a description for Gem City? Muffy > Barrett > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > > > Now if someone could find the lost central Wisconsin apple 'Gem City' > > Steve H. Lone Rock WI > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1 > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user > config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list > mirror > sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user > config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list > mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Tue May 5 22:43:55 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 19:43:55 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Soliciting opinions/advice/experience Message-ID: <20150505194355.C495581A@m0048136.ppops.net> Gang, I have a location, it is south facing brick wall, with about strip of extremely rich soil that is 15 inches wide and about 8-10 inches deep. There is a volunteer Belle Of Georgia seedling growing there, but I assume with so little soil and being a likely vigorous tree that any attempt to espalier that would end in failure (i.e. not enough moisture and room for root development of a full sized peach. So I ordered a Gisela 3 cherry from Raintree to plant there, but what I received did not meet my expectation. I expected a small rooted plant and I received a rather robustly roots ?tree? of a rather large diameter. Normally I would be happy to receive such a tree, but it turned out not to be suitable for my purpose (no fault of Raintree ? it is a nice tree). In terms of the volume of soiI I am tempted to use it for apple espaliers (single U?s) on M27. In my area even after 15 years M27 roots occupy less than a 1 foot square and 8-10 inches deep root system. So while I think the trees would grow fine I am concerned about the heat. I cannot imagine apples like Honey Crisp, Harlson, or Northen Spy developing well on a south facing brink wall. But then I thought of an apple like GoldRush that want a long season or Bramley?s that is only marginally hardy in my zone 5a/4b location (outside of Chicago). So my questions are as follows, in general can apples handle the heat? And of the apples listed below, which ones, if any would you think would favor a southern facing brick wall exposure (the bricks would be about 7 inches from the limbs)? Thanking you in advance for any assistance you care to afford. Kindest regards, The fluffy bunny American Beauty Ashmead?s Kernel Belle De Boskoop BlushingGolden Bramleys Seedling Chenago Strawberry Dayton Egremont Russet Etter'sGold Fiesta Golden Pearmain Golden Pippin Golden Russet GoldRush Grimes Golden Hawaii Hokutu Holstein Hubbardston NoneSuch Hudsons Golden Gem JonaGold Karmijn de Sonnaville Keepsake Kidds Orange Red LIberty Mother Newtown Pippin Northern Spy NovaSpy NY 74840.1 Pitmaston PIneapple PixieCrunch Pome Gris Razor Russet Ribston Pippin Roxbury Russet Rubinette Saint Edmunds Pippin Shizuka Smoke House Snow Sweet SpiGold Spitzenburg SunCrisp Sweet 16 Westfield Seek No Further White Winter Pearmain Zabergau Reinette Zestar _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From dwoodard at becon.org Tue May 5 23:06:38 2015 From: dwoodard at becon.org (dwoodard at becon.org) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 23:06:38 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Soliciting opinions/advice/experience In-Reply-To: <20150505194355.C495581A@m0048136.ppops.net> References: <20150505194355.C495581A@m0048136.ppops.net> Message-ID: <6be59a6cf51e196f81978d1950ad34c1@becon.org> Fluffy One: I have no experience with it, but Rubinette has been reported on this list to do well in Southern California. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario On Tue, 5 May 2015 19:43:55 -0700, "fuwa fuwa usagi" wrote: > > So my questions are as follows, in general can apples handle the > heat? > And of the apples listed below, which ones, if any would you think > would favor a southern facing brick wall exposure (the bricks would > be > about 7 inches from the limbs)? > Thanking you in advance for any assistance you care to afford. > > Kindest regards, > > The fluffy bunny > > American Beauty > Ashmead?s Kernel > Belle De Boskoop > BlushingGolden > Bramleys Seedling > Chenago Strawberry > Dayton > Egremont Russet > Etter'sGold > Fiesta > Golden Pearmain > Golden Pippin > Golden Russet > GoldRush > Grimes Golden > Hawaii > Hokutu > Holstein > Hubbardston NoneSuch > Hudsons Golden Gem > JonaGold > Karmijn de Sonnaville > Keepsake > Kidds Orange Red > LIberty > Mother > Newtown Pippin > Northern Spy > NovaSpy > NY 74840.1 > Pitmaston PIneapple > PixieCrunch > Pome Gris > Razor Russet > Ribston Pippin > Roxbury Russet > Rubinette > Saint Edmunds Pippin > Shizuka > Smoke House > Snow Sweet > SpiGold > Spitzenburg > SunCrisp > Sweet 16 > Westfield Seek No Further > White Winter Pearmain > Zabergau Reinette > Zestar From tanisgrif at yahoo.com Fri May 8 13:21:38 2015 From: tanisgrif at yahoo.com (tanis grif) Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:21:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nafex] Need butternut pollen? Message-ID: <1122533214.2842918.1431105698908.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I just noticed a young butternut tree about to shed pollen. I thought they were all gone from this area, where the canker disease killed the last big one years ago. It is growing in higher & drier soil than the original large grove, so I wonder how long it will last, even though it survived 2012. Last winter was NOT a fruit-bud test winter-- old fashioned forsythia bloomed nicely this spring. Please inform how to collect, cure, and package for shipping. Tanis Cuff, south central WI From hello at protocol6.com Fri May 8 20:20:14 2015 From: hello at protocol6.com (Andre Pierre) Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:20:14 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Bud Grafting honeyberry (Lonicera caerulea) onto other types of honeysuckle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150509002014.GA12503@arcanum.localdomain.local> Hi, Just curious if anyone has ever attempted to bud graft haskap (honeyberry) onto established honeysuckle, either native or invasive? We have many established japanese honeysuckle plants which are invasive here in New England. I'm thinking I might be able to use them as rootstock for the edible honeyberry, rather than pull them out. Any experience or opinions whether this is feasible. Thanks in advance and best regards, :-) Andre Massachusetts Zone 5b -- "To iterate is human; to recurse, divine." -- Robert Heller From dvidedevo at yahoo.com Fri May 8 20:39:58 2015 From: dvidedevo at yahoo.com (Devin Smith) Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 00:39:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nafex] m-26 interstems precocious Message-ID: <297021997.3738645.1431131998374.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'm happy to report that the droves of m-26 interstem grafts I did on hapless seedling whips growing around the property were successful and they are definitely precocious- nearly half of them are showing pink and set to flower, not bad for last years graft! The rootstock varied in size from 1/4" to 3/8", and grew well despite no watering or mulch. I did both grafts (interstem and variety) at the same time and had near 100% success. I kept the interstem short so that bur knots are too bad. With the number of wild seedling trees that I have to choose from, I don't think I'll ever plant an apple tree again.?-Devin From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Fri May 8 21:33:46 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:33:46 -0700 Subject: [nafex] m-26 interstems precocious Message-ID: <20150508183346.C488F2E1@m0005298.ppops.net> Devin, I think we would all love follow-up reports on the eventual tree sizes. tfb --- nafex at lists.ibiblio.org wrote: From: Devin Smith via nafex To: Mailing List at Ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters Cc: Devin Smith Subject: [nafex] m-26 interstems precocious Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 00:39:58 +0000 (UTC) I'm happy to report that the droves of m-26 interstem grafts I did on hapless seedling whips growing around the property were successful and they are definitely precocious- nearly half of them are showing pink and set to flower, not bad for last years graft! The rootstock varied in size from 1/4" to 3/8", and grew well despite no watering or mulch. I did both grafts (interstem and variety) at the same time and had near 100% success. I kept the interstem short so that bur knots are too bad. With the number of wild seedling trees that I have to choose from, I don't think I'll ever plant an apple tree again.?-Devin __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From jwlehman at aol.com Sun May 10 12:38:56 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:38:56 -0400 Subject: [nafex] 2015 annual meeting registration form Message-ID: <554F89A0.1080206@aol.com> Good morning again, Attached is a registration form for the 2015 annual meeting. It is not required that you be a member to attend. We believe after attending a meeting you will want to become a member. Plan now to attend and be prepared to learn, meet new fruity friends and have fun. Jerry Lehman -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: REGISTRATION FORM 2015 V3.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 42712 bytes Desc: not available URL: From qazingulaza at gmail.com Tue May 12 08:48:06 2015 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 07:48:06 -0500 Subject: [nafex] 2015 annual meeting registration form In-Reply-To: <554F89A0.1080206@aol.com> References: <554F89A0.1080206@aol.com> Message-ID: where do you find the details about what will happen at the meeting and where the tour is going to be? On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > Good morning again, > > Attached is a registration form for the 2015 annual meeting. It is not > required that you be a member to attend. We believe after attending a > meeting you will want to become a member. > > Plan now to attend and be prepared to learn, meet new fruity friends and > have fun. > > Jerry Lehman > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From jwlehman at aol.com Tue May 12 10:51:31 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:51:31 -0400 Subject: [nafex] 2015 annual meeting registration form In-Reply-To: References: <554F89A0.1080206@aol.com> Message-ID: <55521373.4000304@aol.com> Good Morning, We don't have all the details of the tour worked out yet. Two of the places that are definitely included are the Blue Berry Farm where the only thing the raise is fruits and berries that are blue in color such as honey berry, Elderberry, blue plums, blueberries and more. Another is the Hock Fruit Farm and winery. I anticipate the group will have lunch there, tour the winery and several acres of apples. I anticipate that visit to take 3 hours. We are also discussing a formal wine tasting, the cost of which hasn't been included in the registration fee. It has been suggested that we visit Seed Savers however the drive time to and back would take nearly 3 hours. That visit could happen but the three-hour drive just messes up the day's schedule. Jerry On 5/12/2015 8:48 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > where do you find the details about what will happen at the meeting > and where the tour is going to be? > > On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex > wrote: >> >Good morning again, >> > >> >Attached is a registration form for the 2015 annual meeting. It is not >> >required that you be a member to attend. We believe after attending a >> >meeting you will want to become a member. >> > >> >Plan now to attend and be prepared to learn, meet new fruity friends and >> >have fun. >> > >> >Jerry Lehman From vmb at teakettlefarm.com Tue May 12 11:06:40 2015 From: vmb at teakettlefarm.com (V. Michael Bove Jr.) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:06:40 -0400 Subject: [nafex] near-monoecious citrumelo? Message-ID: <2C159FC1-0580-419E-8BAB-30CC24AE84D1@teakettlefarm.com> I have a beautiful citrumelo tree in my greenhouse that seems to produce nearly all imperfect (male) flowers. I didn?t think citrus did that. Has anyone seen this before? Can I somehow convince it to be a little more balanced about sexual matters? I?m not exactly in citrus country so there?s not a lot of local knowledge... Michael Bove Teakettle Farm, Z6 (MA/RI border) From rizzolori1 at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:48:12 2015 From: rizzolori1 at gmail.com (Lori Rizzo) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:48:12 -0400 Subject: [nafex] near-monoecious citrumelo? In-Reply-To: <2C159FC1-0580-419E-8BAB-30CC24AE84D1@teakettlefarm.com> References: <2C159FC1-0580-419E-8BAB-30CC24AE84D1@teakettlefarm.com> Message-ID: <4E172F0A-8DDF-4958-BB7A-EC4251C8FE04@gmail.com> Perhaps that citrus is inside too much and hasn't bee able to all to the birds and bees ;-) L.A. Rizzo Kingston, MA > On May 12, 2015, at 11:06 AM, V. Michael Bove Jr. wrote: > > I have a beautiful citrumelo tree in my greenhouse that seems to produce nearly all imperfect (male) flowers. I didn?t think citrus did that. Has anyone seen this before? Can I somehow convince it to be a little more balanced about sexual matters? I?m not exactly in citrus country so there?s not a lot of local knowledge... > Michael Bove > Teakettle Farm, Z6 (MA/RI border) > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From qazingulaza at gmail.com Tue May 12 18:49:49 2015 From: qazingulaza at gmail.com (mIEKAL aND) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 17:49:49 -0500 Subject: [nafex] 2015 annual meeting registration form In-Reply-To: <55521373.4000304@aol.com> References: <554F89A0.1080206@aol.com> <55521373.4000304@aol.com> Message-ID: oh interesting, I assumed the tours were to NAFEX member's places? I know both Jim Riddle and Harry Hoch?. they're pretty active in the organic world... On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > Good Morning, > > We don't have all the details of the tour worked out yet. Two of the places > that are definitely included are the Blue Berry Farm where the only thing > the raise is fruits and berries that are blue in color such as honey berry, > Elderberry, blue plums, blueberries and more. Another is the Hock Fruit Farm > and winery. I anticipate the group will have lunch there, tour the winery > and several acres of apples. I anticipate that visit to take 3 hours. We are > also discussing a formal wine tasting, the cost of which hasn't been > included in the registration fee. It has been suggested that we visit Seed > Savers however the drive time to and back would take nearly 3 hours. That > visit could happen but the three-hour drive just messes up the day's > schedule. > > Jerry > > > > > On 5/12/2015 8:48 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> where do you find the details about what will happen at the meeting >> and where the tour is going to be? >> >> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex >> wrote: >>> >>> >Good morning again, >>> > >>> >Attached is a registration form for the 2015 annual meeting. It is not >>> >required that you be a member to attend. We believe after attending a >>> >meeting you will want to become a member. >>> > >>> >Plan now to attend and be prepared to learn, meet new fruity friends >>> > and >>> >have fun. >>> > >>> >Jerry Lehman > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From orders at cuttsreviews.com Fri May 15 13:13:12 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 11:13:12 -0600 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> Message-ID: <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> Hi, All. I read on a list somewhere (don't know if it was this one) a debate about whether to fertilize trees in the spring or fall. I think the argument for fall was something about making the fertilizer available for spring growth. The argument against fall was that it can cause late growth that is too tender. I'm not quite sure how fertilizing works. I have a suspicion and wonder if anyone can confirm or contribute. We're in a location with very poor soil, in fact mostly sand with few nutrients. It's been common for some to plants to put on less than an inch of growth during a season. Last spring I added both manure and organic corn gluten fertilizer to trees, scratching the fertilizer into the top of the soil. By the end of the season, most of the trees had still put on very little growth, maybe 1-3". Frustrated, I upped the fertilization this spring by putting cottonseed meal fertilizer into holes punched in the ground to get more to the tree roots. However, as things leaf out this year, I see lots of the trees already putting on 6-8" of new growth right away! It's as though the fertilizer that they got last spring didn't add to last year's growth but prepped the plants for strong growth this spring. Is this how it works, at least with the slow release, organic fertilizer I'm using? These are all fairly young trees, from a couple feet high to 5 or 6 feet. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days From leeareich at gmail.com Sat May 16 09:01:50 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 09:01:50 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take action the following spring. Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is too dry. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 15, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > > Hi, All. > > I read on a list somewhere (don't know if it was this one) a debate about whether to fertilize trees in the spring or fall. I think the argument for fall was something about making the fertilizer available for spring growth. The argument against fall was that it can cause late growth that is too tender. > > I'm not quite sure how fertilizing works. I have a suspicion and wonder if anyone can confirm or contribute. We're in a location with very poor soil, in fact mostly sand with few nutrients. It's been common for some to plants to put on less than an inch of growth during a season. Last spring I added both manure and organic corn gluten fertilizer to trees, scratching the fertilizer into the top of the soil. By the end of the season, most of the trees had still put on very little growth, maybe 1-3". Frustrated, I upped the fertilization this spring by putting cottonseed meal fertilizer into holes punched in the ground to get more to the tree roots. > > However, as things leaf out this year, I see lots of the trees already putting on 6-8" of new growth right away! It's as though the fertilizer that they got last spring didn't add to last year's growth but prepped the plants for strong growth this spring. Is this how it works, at least with the slow release, organic fertilizer I'm using? > > These are all fairly young trees, from a couple feet high to 5 or 6 feet. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) > (505) 281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From jwlehman at aol.com Sun May 17 10:45:51 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 10:45:51 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is desirable. I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) Jerry On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. > > As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take action the following spring. > > Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is too dry. > > Lee Reich, PhD From leeareich at gmail.com Sun May 17 11:33:51 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:33:51 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> Message-ID: <8EDE92CA-0972-4F5E-A606-4B28B487407D@leereich.com> Jerry, Be careful what you wish for. Sand mixed with certain clays becomes something like concrete! Lee Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 17, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > > Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, > > Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is desirable. > > I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) > > Jerry > > On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. >> >> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take action the following spring. >> >> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is too dry. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From jwlehman at aol.com Sun May 17 18:25:40 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 18:25:40 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <8EDE92CA-0972-4F5E-A606-4B28B487407D@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <8EDE92CA-0972-4F5E-A606-4B28B487407D@leereich.com> Message-ID: <55591564.6080806@aol.com> I certainly wouldn't want that, Lee! On 5/17/2015 11:33 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > Jerry, Be careful what you wish for. Sand mixed with certain clays becomes something like concrete! > > Lee > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 17, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: >> >> Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, >> >> Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is desirable. >> >> I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. >>> >>> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take action the following spring. >>> >>> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is too dry. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From orders at cuttsreviews.com Sun May 17 21:06:30 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 19:06:30 -0600 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> Message-ID: <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> Hey, Jerry. I suggested that on the list last year - mixing sand into the clay soil at my other location - and was told that the result would be cement :) Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days On 5/17/2015 8:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, > > Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a > footnote, if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved > fertilizer nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued > fertilization will be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The > long-term effect of the manure is slower release of the nutrients for > more continual feeding but still is relatively short-lived and > continual annual reapplication is desirable. > > I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange > for 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both > of us. :-) > > Jerry > > On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, >> manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic >> fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in >> nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have >> long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying >> them as mulches. >> >> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied >> late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. >> Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has >> experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied >> fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, >> those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take >> action the following spring. >> >> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your >> sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the >> soil is too dry. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > From orders at cuttsreviews.com Sun May 17 21:06:46 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 19:06:46 -0600 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <8EDE92CA-0972-4F5E-A606-4B28B487407D@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <8EDE92CA-0972-4F5E-A606-4B28B487407D@leereich.com> Message-ID: <55593B26.8060802@cuttsreviews.com> There you go! Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days On 5/17/2015 9:33 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > Jerry, Be careful what you wish for. Sand mixed with certain clays becomes something like concrete! > > Lee > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 17, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: >> >> Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, >> >> Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is desirable. >> >> I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. >>> >>> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t become available until microbes take action the following spring. >>> >>> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is too dry. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > From yettmw at gmail.com Sun May 17 22:10:50 2015 From: yettmw at gmail.com (Mary Yett) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:10:50 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: Add organic spot mulch generously around each tree at least to the drip line every year and gradually over several years your sandy soil will become a rich sandy loam which is both fertile and water retaining. The organic mulch feeds the soil food web, a complex ecosystem of bacteria, fungi, worms, protozoa, arthropods, etc. This ecosystem makes the mineral nutrients in your soil bioavailable, creates air passages deep in the soil ( which also let water penetrate deeply), deposits humus ( very water retaining), builds topsoil, sequesters carbon, and does many other useful things. Planting a diverse ground cover mix of herbaceous plants under your trees instead of grass can also help the health of the life in the soil, One trick is to plant perennial biomass producers such as comfrey, lovage, valerian, red clover, bird's foot trefoil,etc and cut them down once or twice a year, leaving their biomass on top of the soil as mulch. This is called " chop and drop" in permaculture circles. I have successfully gotten away with sprinkling a thin layer of heavy clay soil (1/2 inch) on top of a thick mulch of organic material overlying very sandy soil and then adding more mulch ( lasagna method of soil building). The clay and the sand were not touching and no concrete was produced. The gradual action of worms and the leaching effect of rain, etc will slowly add minerals to the deeper layers of soil. Trees last a long time, so a slow but steady method that produces reliable results is worth the effort and wait in my book. Spray the trees with compost tea twice a year if needed during the "waiting period". It works wonders. Mary Yett On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > Hey, Jerry. > > I suggested that on the list last year - mixing sand into the clay soil at > my other location - and was told that the result would be cement :) > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) > (505) 281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days > > On 5/17/2015 8:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > >> Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, >> >> Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, >> if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer >> nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will >> be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the >> manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but >> still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is >> desirable. >> >> I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for >> 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >> >>> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, >>> manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic >>> fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients >>> that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient >>> benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. >>> >>> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied >>> late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant >>> growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced >>> sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, >>> with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t >>> become available until microbes take action the following spring. >>> >>> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your >>> sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is >>> too dry. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> >> > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From leeareich at gmail.com Mon May 18 05:59:13 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 05:59:13 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <9E4C6793-6681-45BC-95B6-0F9EF5259FFB@leereich.com> A review of the scientific (peer-reviewed literature) on compost tea sprays has shown it to be generally ineffective. This makes sense when you think about how microorganisms that thrive in the dark, nutrient-rich, moist innards of a compost pile might fare when sprayed on the nutrient-poor, generally dry and sunny environment of leaves. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 17, 2015, at 10:10 PM, Mary Yett wrote: > > Add organic spot mulch generously around each tree at least to the drip > line every year and gradually over several years your sandy soil will > become a rich sandy loam which is both fertile and water retaining. The > organic mulch feeds the soil food web, a complex ecosystem of bacteria, > fungi, worms, protozoa, arthropods, etc. This ecosystem makes the mineral > nutrients in your soil bioavailable, creates air passages deep in the soil > ( which also let water penetrate deeply), deposits humus ( very water > retaining), builds topsoil, sequesters carbon, and does many other useful > things. > > Planting a diverse ground cover mix of herbaceous plants under your trees > instead of grass can also help the health of the life in the soil, One > trick is to plant perennial biomass producers such as comfrey, lovage, > valerian, red clover, bird's foot trefoil,etc and cut them down once or > twice a year, leaving their biomass on top of the soil as mulch. This is > called " chop and drop" in permaculture circles. > > I have successfully gotten away with sprinkling a thin layer of heavy clay > soil (1/2 inch) on top of a thick mulch of organic material overlying very > sandy soil and then adding more mulch ( lasagna method of soil building). > The clay and the sand were not touching and no concrete was produced. The > gradual action of worms and the leaching effect of rain, etc will slowly > add minerals to the deeper layers of soil. > > Trees last a long time, so a slow but steady method that produces reliable > results is worth the effort and wait in my book. Spray the trees with > compost tea twice a year if needed during the "waiting period". It works > wonders. > > Mary Yett > > On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > >> Hey, Jerry. >> >> I suggested that on the list last year - mixing sand into the clay soil at >> my other location - and was told that the result would be cement :) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) >> (505) 281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days >> >> On 5/17/2015 8:45 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: >> >>> Greetings fellow NAFEX'ers, >>> >>> Lee is absolutely correct in everything he wrote. I might add a footnote, >>> if your sand has little organic matter even the dissolved fertilizer >>> nutrients will leach beyond the root area and continued fertilization will >>> be more necessary than sandy high organic soil. The long-term effect of the >>> manure is slower release of the nutrients for more continual feeding but >>> still is relatively short-lived and continual annual reapplication is >>> desirable. >>> >>> I wish I could take about 6 inches of my clay and give it in exchange for >>> 6 inches of years sand that we could mix the 2 together for both of us. :-) >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 5/16/2015 9:01 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> >>>> The ideal is to plan more long-term for fertilization. As you saw, >>>> manure?s benefit was not realized the first season. Bulky organic >>>> fertilizers, such as some manures and compost (which is so low in nutrients >>>> that it cannot legally be termed ?fertilizer?), have long-term nutrient >>>> benefits. I would suggest using those and applying them as mulches. >>>> >>>> As far as spring vs fall, fall fertilization is fine if it?s applied >>>> late enough, in mid fall or later, depending on the local climate. Plant >>>> growth won?t be stimulated, no matter what, once a plant has experienced >>>> sufficient cold and short days. If a fall-applied fertilizer is organic, >>>> with nutrients locked up in organic compounds, those nutrients anyway won?t >>>> become available until microbes take action the following spring. >>>> >>>> Poor growth is not only attributable to insufficient nutrition. Your >>>> sandy soil dries out quickly. Nutrients cannot do anything if the soil is >>>> too dry. >>>> >>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>> >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> >>> >>> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From sam.brungardt at state.mn.us Mon May 18 11:23:13 2015 From: sam.brungardt at state.mn.us (Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 15:23:13 +0000 Subject: [nafex] Experimental fruit: Project studies which varieties do best in Montana Message-ID: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E40540FF34@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> [https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images%3Fq%3Dtbn:ANd9GcR2DQoku3KTRgFCMtCVgMpQuCNbx1nwiU3lRHmLYc6dXAhKl7GVNGc7fJC_Tn3uaLDCSb9T3cc][Helena Independent Record] Helena Independent Record Experimental fruit: Project studies which varieties do best in Montana Helena Independent Record Zach Miller with the Western Agriculture Research Center shows Brent Sarchet, right, experimental fruit bushes a team planted on Thursday. [Google Plus] [Facebook] [Twitter] Flag as irrelevant -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3676 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2646 bytes Desc: image009.emz URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 952 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 732 bytes Desc: image011.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.png Type: image/png Size: 505 bytes Desc: image012.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 732 bytes Desc: image013.jpg URL: From sam.brungardt at state.mn.us Mon May 18 11:34:50 2015 From: sam.brungardt at state.mn.us (Brungardt, Sam (MPCA)) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 15:34:50 +0000 Subject: [nafex] A special Jersey-bred fruit is berry, berry good Message-ID: <1268E36B214F7D4F968B0285BF5CF3E405410022@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net> [https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images%3Fq%3Dtbn:ANd9GcQxiwghvB7wcn_d8MXoQspdHCI6uQhiIS0cGSF2kv3ChyECSxODGSjArA0cmrx2diUczKWkXLk][Philly.com] Philly.com A special Jersey-bred fruit is berry, berry good Philly.com The "Rutgers Scarlet," a trademarked name, is now being tested on 13 farms across the state and will begin producing fruit over the next couple of ... [Google Plus] [Facebook] [Twitter] Flag as irrelevant -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 732 bytes Desc: image013.jpg URL: From mdemmon at gmail.com Mon May 18 12:43:32 2015 From: mdemmon at gmail.com (Matt Demmon) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 12:43:32 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Apple Anthracnose on Pears. Message-ID: Dear list, I need some help. I've been planting fruit trees at my place for about 5 years, and have generally had good success and growth, and learned from most of my mistakes. Most death or decline had an obvious answer and remedy. However, this spring, 1 of 3 Asian pears was dead almost to the ground, and 2 adjacent European pears and another Asian pear had dead twigs, cankers, and other signs of fungal disease. I used some handy reference books, and came up with apple anthracnose, but no solution. I've cut down the dead one, although it is resprouting just above the graft. The others seem to be living, but have some dead twigs and some have cankers low down on the trunk. None of my apples are showing signs currently, or pears that are several hundred feet away. Is this going to spread? Worth trying to save the ones that are left? Best to cut them out to save everything else? We've had two very wet summers in a row, and most of these trees are 4-5 years old. It hurts me to lose them, since we just started getting pears last year, but I'd rather not lose the rest of them if I can avoid it. Thanks! -Matt z5 se MI From hartmansfruit at msn.com Mon May 18 16:15:10 2015 From: hartmansfruit at msn.com (ROBERT W JUDY A) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 13:15:10 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Apple Anthracnose on Pears. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you taken a look at WSU Hortsense? Go to Google and type in WSU Hortsense. Then choose Tree Fruits, then pear, and then Pseudomonas. Do your branches look anything like these? That is what affects us here. Just a thought for you. An yes, we normally get a lot of rainy times. This site gives you some ideas to use. Bob Western Washington -----Original Message----- From: Matt Demmon Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:43 AM To: nafex list Subject: [nafex] Apple Anthracnose on Pears. Dear list, I need some help. I've been planting fruit trees at my place for about 5 years, and have generally had good success and growth, and learned from most of my mistakes. Most death or decline had an obvious answer and remedy. However, this spring, 1 of 3 Asian pears was dead almost to the ground, and 2 adjacent European pears and another Asian pear had dead twigs, cankers, and other signs of fungal disease. I used some handy reference books, and came up with apple anthracnose, but no solution. I've cut down the dead one, although it is resprouting just above the graft. The others seem to be living, but have some dead twigs and some have cankers low down on the trunk. None of my apples are showing signs currently, or pears that are several hundred feet away. Is this going to spread? Worth trying to save the ones that are left? Best to cut them out to save everything else? We've had two very wet summers in a row, and most of these trees are 4-5 years old. It hurts me to lose them, since we just started getting pears last year, but I'd rather not lose the rest of them if I can avoid it. Thanks! -Matt z5 se MI __________________ nafex mailing list nafex at lists.ibiblio.org Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex message archives http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex Google message archive search: site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] nafex list mirror sites: http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From jwlehman at aol.com Tue May 19 09:48:55 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <555B3F47.4030406@aol.com> Two people have reported this. Can anyone speak from experience? And then I wonder if this refers to maybe some individual sand such as silica sand? I have a tributary that runs through my farm that leaves fresh deposits of sand. I have a tractor with the loader and I've hauled quite a few loads of sand onto my garden and mixed it in. On one end of the garden I mixed in a pretty heavy amount, like several inches. I've seen no evidence of compacting or hardening. I like to collect the soil from that area to use for potting. I also add compost across my garden which may be negating any hardening affect. The sand that I bring up this quite clean. Jerry On 5/17/2015 9:06 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > I suggested that on the list last year - mixing sand into the clay > soil at my other location - and was told that the result would be > cement :) From jwlehman at aol.com Tue May 19 09:57:00 2015 From: jwlehman at aol.com (Jerry Lehman) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:57:00 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <9E4C6793-6681-45BC-95B6-0F9EF5259FFB@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> <9E4C6793-6681-45BC-95B6-0F9EF5259FFB@leereich.com> Message-ID: <555B412C.9040206@aol.com> Add organic spot mulch generously around each tree at least to the drip line every year. 1st, keep in mind I tend to be agnostic. But I question this advice of fertilizing around the drip line. I have many tall trees on my 84 farm and I have a subsoiler. Also my Gardens are well beyond the drip line of many trees such as oak and Osage orange. I can tell you unequivocally that the roots extend well beyond the drip line, therefore I am agnostic about the common theory to fertilize around the drip line. Also keep in mind that the nourishment taken in by roots is done so at the growing tip and the roots for example 1 inch in diameter and greater are nothing but transportation vessels for the nourishment's the root tips absorb. Therefore my cautious conclusion is most of the nutrition as absorbed by the root systems extending beyond the drip line. Any arguments/discussion? Jerry From stuart at castlehillcider.com Tue May 19 10:11:19 2015 From: stuart at castlehillcider.com (Stuart Madany) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:11:19 +0000 Subject: [nafex] Sand and Clay Message-ID: As someone who's done a good bit of reading about compressed earth block, and rammed earth construction, I can tell you that if you want it to be like concrete, then a whole bunch of variables come into play and "clay" becomes a very imprecise term. Stuart J Madany Cider Maker / Orchard Manager 6065 Turkey Sag Road Keswick, VA 22947 434.296.0047 x104 [cid:577CA35B-5B03-408E-A1C1-3184BE551AED at hsd1.va.comcast.net.] http://www.castlehillcider.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12836 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Tue May 19 12:13:57 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:13:57 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > I'm not quite sure how fertilizing works. I have a suspicion and wonder if > anyone can confirm or contribute. We're in a location with very poor soil, > in fact mostly sand with few nutrients. It's been common for some to > plants to put on less than an inch of growth during a season. Last spring I > added both manure and organic corn gluten fertilizer to trees, scratching > the fertilizer into the top of the soil. By the end of the season, most of > the trees had still put on very little growth, maybe 1-3". Frustrated, I > upped the fertilization this spring by putting cottonseed meal fertilizer > into holes punched in the ground to get more to the tree roots. Remineralize your garden and orchard soils. In addition to amendments available from Fertrell such as greensand, rock and colloidal phosphate, azomite, high calcium lime, aragonite and others, rock dust from local quarries is cheap and very effective. The technical term for quarry rock dust is siltation pond fines and grit varies from 200 mesh to fine powder in an aggregate that partially dissolves in water (why do the Hunzas live so long, minerals from rock powders in the mountain streams they drink from). Quarries usually give this away and truckers (single/tandem/tri axle dump trucks) can be hired to haul this material to your property. Import a hundred tons of this miraculous amendment, spread it with a tractor or loader and till or cultivate into the top soil layers. If you have grasses and clovers nearby or downhill you will see impressive growth in them. There are many types of rock quarried for sonstruction use and most can be used agriculturally. Some of them are granite, others pyrophyllite, others volcanic tuff or basalt. Often they will have useful levels of potash. It can be used with compost to make a great seed starting mix. If you have problem clay or sand this directly addresses permeability, water retention, tilth and fertility issues you may have. Remineralize the Earth! Here is a great website to browse on this subject among many other excellent ones. I have a collection of discussion threads on this subject in URL's I can provide. Gardening for Maximum Nutrition *http://tinyurl.com/MaxNutritionGarden* http://www.mercyviewmeadow.org/Garden/GardeningforMaximumNutrition.htm -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com Ello: @ecoponderosa https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ From leeareich at gmail.com Tue May 19 17:27:22 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 17:27:22 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <555B412C.9040206@aol.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <5558A99F.6020602@aol.com> <55593B16.1030004@cuttsreviews.com> <9E4C6793-6681-45BC-95B6-0F9EF5259FFB@leereich.com> <555B412C.9040206@aol.com> Message-ID: <5C5A1E05-42BA-4DB1-A6B8-528793A3A127@leereich.com> I thought that the drip line myth was put to rest years ago. Yes, Jerry, tree roots do generally extend well beyond their drip line, twice as far or more, depending on soil conditions. But that doesn?t mean that all feeder roots are out that far. Some will also be developing within the drip line. Most feeder roots, by the way, are in the surface areas of soil where there is best aeration, most biological activity, and most organic matter (all three go hand in hand). Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 19, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Jerry Lehman via nafex wrote: > > > Add organic spot mulch generously around each tree at least to the drip line every year. > > > 1st, keep in mind I tend to be agnostic. But I question this advice of fertilizing around the drip line. I have many tall trees on my 84 farm and I have a subsoiler. Also my Gardens are well beyond the drip line of many trees such as oak and Osage orange. I can tell you unequivocally that the roots extend well beyond the drip line, therefore I am agnostic about the common theory to fertilize around the drip line. Also keep in mind that the nourishment taken in by roots is done so at the growing tip and the roots for example 1 inch in diameter and greater are nothing but transportation vessels for the nourishment's the root tips absorb. Therefore my cautious conclusion is most of the nutrition as absorbed by the root systems extending beyond the drip line. Any arguments/discussion? > > Jerry > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From leeareich at gmail.com Tue May 19 17:32:35 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 17:32:35 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> Not to keep entering this soil fray, but hauling around ground rocks seems like a waste of time, money, and fuel. We all have ground rocks in our soils; it makes up about 50% of the soil volume. If some micronutrients are lacking, the easiest way to add them is via compost made from a variety of feedstuffs or with kelp. My not-very-scientific use of kelp rests on the assumption that since we all came from the sea, the sea has all the minerals that we need. Anyway, kelp is a lot lighter to haul and contains a wider spectrum of readily available minerals that do ground rocks. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 19, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Lawrence London wrote: > > On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > >> I'm not quite sure how fertilizing works. I have a suspicion and wonder if >> anyone can confirm or contribute. We're in a location with very poor soil, >> in fact mostly sand with few nutrients. It's been common for some to >> plants to put on less than an inch of growth during a season. Last spring I >> added both manure and organic corn gluten fertilizer to trees, scratching >> the fertilizer into the top of the soil. By the end of the season, most of >> the trees had still put on very little growth, maybe 1-3". Frustrated, I >> upped the fertilization this spring by putting cottonseed meal fertilizer >> into holes punched in the ground to get more to the tree roots. > > > Remineralize your garden and orchard soils. In addition to amendments > available from Fertrell such as greensand, rock and colloidal phosphate, > azomite, high calcium lime, aragonite and others, rock dust from local > quarries is cheap and very effective. The technical term for quarry rock > dust is siltation pond fines and grit varies from 200 mesh to > fine powder in an aggregate that partially dissolves in water (why do the > Hunzas live so long, minerals from rock powders in the mountain streams > they drink from). Quarries usually give this away and truckers > (single/tandem/tri axle dump trucks) can be hired to haul this material to > your property. Import a hundred tons of this miraculous amendment, > spread it with a tractor or loader and till or cultivate into the top soil > layers. If you have grasses and clovers nearby or downhill you will see > impressive growth in them. There are many types of rock quarried for > sonstruction use and most can be used agriculturally. Some of them are > granite, others pyrophyllite, others volcanic tuff or basalt. Often they > will have useful levels of potash. It can be used with compost to make a > great seed starting mix. If you have problem clay or sand this directly > addresses permeability, water retention, > tilth and fertility issues you may have. Remineralize the Earth! > > Here is a great website to browse on this subject among many other > excellent ones. I have a collection of discussion threads on this subject > in URL's I can provide. > Gardening for Maximum Nutrition > *http://tinyurl.com/MaxNutritionGarden* > > http://www.mercyviewmeadow.org/Garden/GardeningforMaximumNutrition.htm > > > -- > Lawrence F. London > lfljvenaura at gmail.com > Ello: @ecoponderosa > https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ > https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Tue May 19 19:10:54 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 19:10:54 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > Not to keep entering this soil fray, but hauling around ground rocks seems > like a waste of time, money, and fuel. We all have ground rocks in our > soils; it makes up about 50% of the soil volume. If some micronutrients are > lacking, the easiest way to add them is via compost made from a variety of > feedstuffs or with kelp. My not-very-scientific use of kelp rests on the > assumption that since we all came from the sea, the sea has all the > minerals that we need. Anyway, kelp is a lot lighter to haul and contains a > wider spectrum of readily available minerals that do ground rocks. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog < > http://www.leereich.com/blog> > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > Fruit and vegetables grown in well mineralized soils have: better flavor, larger size, better keeping qualities and are more disease and insect resistant. I have applied hundreds of tons of 4 different kinds of quarry rock dusts to 5 acres of my open land. You can see the difference. Talk about weeds! Mineral amendments include, as you mention, seaweed meal, greensand, wood ashes, crab and fish wastes, azomite, high calcium and dolomitic limestone, shell meal and aragonite. PPM for PPM rock dusts applied over an area larger than a small garden are cheaper and have sustained release over a longer period of time. I would suggest using all amendments in my list plus having any size truckload(s) of quarry dusts deliver and just dumped in a pile. Shovel a wheelbarrow load and spread it on your gardens and tree and bush plantings annually for balanced plant nutrition. Here is an interesting exchange in another forum: Frank Schultz owns TPSL, Texas Plant and Soil Lab. --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Frank Schultz Date: Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] American Consumers Cynical About 'Organic' Food Label To: SANET-MG at lists.ifas.ufl.edu Kris, "... but if you don't pay attention to the mineral content of the soil/plant, you may be missing a key mineral that is limiting the plant's potential. That happens all to often, with the notion floating around that all you need is excellent soil life." EXACTLY!!! QUITE WELL SAID! Conventional wisdom seems to say that lots of organic matter with good biological activity is the panacea to growing nutrient-dense produce. We've just come out with a Fruit and Vegetable Mineral Nutrients Analysis but here's the problem: Establishing Standards. While we can easily report mineral content numbers, we can't tell the client what those numbers should be, as we normally can with soils, plants and irrigation water. I've done a little poking-around (although not exhaustively), trying to find nutrient levels in various fruit and vegetable as they existed by no later than the early 1950s to form initial benchmarks, without much luck. To make the problem more interesting, we can't tell the client what the mineral content of the produce - fruit / grain - should be at the particular stage of development, as we can with the plant. There are differences. While there are a number of references to percentages of [dramatic] decline for various elements, I'm having a hard time coming up with the actual numbers of the original assays. Further, it appears that some trace elements which are now known to be essential or at least beneficial, may not have been known at the time and were therefore not assayed. Additionally, we can now measure down to parts per billion which was not possible back then. Of course, this is an over-simplification, as not many varieties from back then are much seen today. The new varieties (not even GM) seem to have been developed first for yields and other qualities, then maybe for taste. Mineral nutritional quality seems to have been little considered, if at all. Additionally, at least some new varieties seem to be unable to take up much of certain elements and are intrinsically mineral-deficient (especially true for GM), regardless of the amounts and forms of the elements applied - whether to soil or foliar. In scanning the material I've seen, this seems to be particularly true of the grains generally available today. Our idea is to be able to give the client some approximate benchmark for produce mineral nutrition content compared to what he's growing now. Perhaps unrealistic and impossible, but will continue poking. Thanks for your post! Frank- -----Original Message----- From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group [mailto:SANET-MG at LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU] On Behalf Of Kris Johnson RR Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:53 AM To: SANET-MG at LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] American Consumers Cynical About 'Organic' Food Label And of course the reason why consumers might have doubts is because of the propaganda from the industry. But there is another issue - certified organic is not a guarantee of top quality. You can use all the compost in the world, cover cropping, etc., but if you don't pay attention to the mineral content of the soil/plant, you may be missing a key mineral that is limiting the plant's potential. That happens all to often, with the notion floating around that all you need is excellent soil life. Kris http://www.mercyviewmeadow.org/Garden/GardeningforMaximumNutrition.htm -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com Ello: @ecoponderosa https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ From orders at cuttsreviews.com Tue May 19 20:44:03 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 18:44:03 -0600 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> Message-ID: <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> Folks, Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days From organic87 at frontiernet.net Tue May 19 20:47:51 2015 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 20:47:51 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> Message-ID: <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> What always seems odd to me about the remineralization people -- at least the ones I've run into at conferences trying to sell rock dusts -- is they don't seem to want to pay attention to what's already in the particular soil. Different soils are lacking in different things. Those things may or may not be present in suitable amounts in the rock dust from any particular quarry. In addition, different soils are high in different things, sometimes to the point of excess at which they interfere with specific plants' ability to take up other nutrients (a problem which may occur at different points with different plants.) Those things also may or may not be present in significant amounts in the rock dust from any particular quarry. But the recommendations always seem to be, "It doesn't matter what's there to start with! Apply more of our rock dust!" Isn't there a risk of getting soils further out of balance, rather than further into balance? Lawrence's specific ground may benefit from the minerals coming out of those specific quarries: but that doesn't mean that all fields will be benefited by applying rock dusts from any quarry/quarries willing to sell them. And how much of the planet do we want to dig up in order to apply it to other portions of the planet? -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale On May 19, 2015, at 7:10 PM, Lawrence London wrote: > Fruit and vegetables grown in well mineralized soils have: better flavor, > larger size, better keeping qualities and are more disease and insect > resistant. > I have applied hundreds of tons of 4 different kinds of quarry rock dusts > to 5 acres of my open land. From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Tue May 19 21:21:03 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 21:21:03 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Road's End Farm wrote: > Different soils are lacking in different things. > Have soil tests done. TPSL is recommended. > Those things may or may not be present in suitable amounts in the rock > dust from any particular quarry. > Each quarry offers a MDSS for their rock. You know what the percentages of the chemical components of the rock are. Match MDSS with soil test recommendations. > In addition, different soils are high in different things, sometimes to > the point of excess at which they interfere with specific plants' ability > to take up other nutrients (a problem > Again, do soil tests and read the MDSS on available dusts. Moderate some imbalances by adding specific minerals needed. If you have too much magnesium from overapplication of dolomitic lime or too much wood ash or greensand then other methods will be necessary to bring soil back into balance. Michael Astera (soil minerals.com) has wtitten extensively about this plus a book on interpreting soil test results (steep learning curve). > which may occur at different points with different plants.) Those things > also may or may not be present in significant amounts in the rock dust from > any particular quarry. , > It is always wise to use a variety of rock quarry dusts plus known mineral amendments, seaweed meal, greensand, azomite, rock phosphate and if you need pH balancing, aragonite and high calcium limestone, even shell meal, compost, leaves, eggshells, feather meal, blood meal, crab and fish wastes, sawdust and bark, hay and cover crop ploughdown; all contribute minerals and nutrient balancing. > But the recommendations always seem to be, "It doesn't matter what's there > to start with! Apply more of our rock dust!" Isn't there a risk of getting > soils further out of balance, rather than further into balance? > With the MDSS you know in advance what minerals you are applying and at what rate. My guess is that most quarry dusts are safe to use and will not cause noticeable imbalances. Farmers in my region have been using the dusts I purchased for land application for many years. They are the lucky ones. > Lawrence's specific ground may benefit from the minerals coming out of > those specific quarries: but that doesn't mean that all fields will be > benefited by applying rock dusts from any quarry/quarries willing to sell > them. > The rock under the parent soil under the topsoil on my land is the same as one of the types of quarry rock dusts I imported, same material. The others were real granite and pyrophyllite. > > And how much of the planet do we want to dig up in order to apply it to > other portions of the planet? > They quarry rock for use in roads, blacktop, concrete and riprap. Silt is a byproduct washed into ponds later removed to add to giant berms or give away or in some cases, sell. No quarries, no construction. -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com Ello: @ecoponderosa https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ From organic87 at frontiernet.net Tue May 19 21:33:29 2015 From: organic87 at frontiernet.net (Road's End Farm) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 21:33:29 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> On May 19, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Lawrence London wrote: > They quarry rock for use in roads, blacktop, concrete and riprap. Silt is a > byproduct washed into ponds later removed to add to giant berms or give > away or in some cases, sell. > No quarries, no construction. That may be true as long as not many people are using it. If lots of farms start using it, I expect they'll start digging specifically for that purpose. None of the sales materials I've seen said "test your soil first and check whether our quarry is a good fit." I'm relieved to hear that at least some of the proponents are doing it that way. -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think Fresh-market organic produce, small scale From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Tue May 19 22:01:52 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 22:01:52 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Road's End Farm wrote: > That may be true as long as not many people are using it. If lots of > farms start using it, I expect they'll start digging specifically for that > purpose. > On the quarry site they have one or more giant rock crushers, to turn big chunks of rock into successively smaller chunks. In the grinding process dust is generated which is washed into the siltation ponds with water pumped from the siltation ponds. The objective is to create crushed rock not generate dust which is a byproduct of the crushing process only. It costs them money to manage it and that is why they usually give it away. > > None of the sales materials I've seen said "test your soil first and check > whether our quarry is a good fit." I'm relieved to hear that at least some > of the proponents are doing it that way. > Most quarries are not the least concerned with agricultural uses of this material. Only one I know of has farmers coming to haul it off. That is a granite quarry. I have a pile of their dust on my land. The benefits of land application of the right dust are immeasurable. To see is to believe. -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com Ello: @ecoponderosa https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ From mlevine at umich.edu Wed May 20 07:42:34 2015 From: mlevine at umich.edu (Mike Levine) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 07:42:34 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: I considered using some once, but the particular product we were were looking at had a tiny bit of radioactive material in it. It was just a small amount, but we were advised by a friend who does environmental testing not to use it for that reason. Every little but of radiation is a little bit more you just don't want around. Radon is common in our area and is formed by the break down of these heavier radioactive elements so it's believable that even a small amount of radioactive material in rock dust could be harmful. As was said before, not all rock dusts are created equal. I'd consider using some if it was clean of heavy metals and radioactive material and if my soils were deficient and the rock dust's composition contained minerals I'm lacking. However, this land is quite productive so if it ain't broke why fix it? Soil testing and adding the specific things you are lacking + a well balanced compost should fix most imbalances. Mike Levine Zone 5b Scio Township, MI On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:01 PM, Lawrence London wrote: > On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Road's End Farm < > organic87 at frontiernet.net> > wrote: > > > That may be true as long as not many people are using it. If lots of > > farms start using it, I expect they'll start digging specifically for > that > > purpose. > > > > On the quarry site they have one or more giant rock crushers, to turn big > chunks of rock into successively smaller chunks. In the grinding process > dust is generated > which is washed into the siltation ponds with water pumped from the > siltation ponds. The objective is to create crushed rock not generate dust > which is a byproduct of the crushing process only. It costs them money to > manage it and that is why they usually give it away. > > > > > None of the sales materials I've seen said "test your soil first and > check > > whether our quarry is a good fit." I'm relieved to hear that at least > some > > of the proponents are doing it that way. > > > > Most quarries are not the least concerned with agricultural uses of this > material. Only one I know of has farmers coming to haul it off. That is a > granite quarry. I have a pile of their dust on my land. The benefits of > land application of the right dust are immeasurable. To see is to believe. > > > > > -- > Lawrence F. London > lfljvenaura at gmail.com > Ello: @ecoponderosa > https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ > https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From lfljvenaura at gmail.com Wed May 20 09:00:42 2015 From: lfljvenaura at gmail.com (Lawrence London) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 09:00:42 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Mike Levine wrote: > I considered using some once, but the particular product we were were > looking at had a tiny bit of radioactive material in it. It was just a > small amount, but we were advised by a friend who does environmental > testing not to use it for that reason. Every little but of radiation is a > little bit more you just don't want around. Radon is common in our area > and is formed by the break down of these heavier radioactive elements so > it's believable that even a small amount of radioactive material in rock > dust could be harmful. > Thanks for the heads-up. I have heard about radioactivity issues with rock phosphate, particularly the Florida types, possibly Tennessee too, don't know about the Idaho. As for quarry dusts, I suppose it may exist, maybe with certain types of granite (a kind of gravelly rock used for driveways in my region). Radon is a problem in many areas and sealing cracks and perimeter of ground contact concrete slabs is necessary; there may be well water issues too. I'll check tonight to see if my feet and hands are beginning to glow. As for my use of quarry dusts I feel the benefits far outweigh any risks. -- Lawrence F. London lfljvenaura at gmail.com Ello: @ecoponderosa https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ From lpittman at murraystate.edu Wed May 20 09:16:57 2015 From: lpittman at murraystate.edu (Louis Pittman) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 08:16:57 -0500 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: To my understanding - and I'm not a nuclear physicist, and don't play one on TV - is that radon, out in the open, is not a concern. It's a potential problem when it's seeping into and accumulating in closed spaces (basements,etc.). I suspect that in an open-field setting, any radon (it is a gas) that might be present/released would quickly dissipate to nothingness. Lucky On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Lawrence London wrote: > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Mike Levine wrote: > > > I considered using some once, but the particular product we were were > > looking at had a tiny bit of radioactive material in it. It was just a > > small amount, but we were advised by a friend who does environmental > > testing not to use it for that reason. Every little but of radiation is > a > > little bit more you just don't want around. Radon is common in our area > > and is formed by the break down of these heavier radioactive elements so > > it's believable that even a small amount of radioactive material in rock > > dust could be harmful. > > > > Thanks for the heads-up. I have heard about radioactivity issues with rock > phosphate, > particularly the Florida types, possibly Tennessee too, don't know about > the Idaho. > As for quarry dusts, I suppose it may exist, maybe with certain types of > granite (a kind of gravelly rock used for driveways in my region). Radon is > a problem in many areas and sealing cracks and perimeter of ground contact > concrete slabs is necessary; there may be well water issues too. > > I'll check tonight to see if my feet and hands are beginning to glow. As > for my use of quarry dusts I feel the benefits far outweigh any risks. > > > -- > Lawrence F. London > lfljvenaura at gmail.com > Ello: @ecoponderosa > https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ > https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From mlevine at umich.edu Thu May 21 08:23:31 2015 From: mlevine at umich.edu (Mike Levine) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 08:23:31 -0400 Subject: [nafex] fertilzing In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <4B082A91-AA8E-4371-A66A-CCAF56650B7B@frontiernet.net> <8B05D5BE-0918-4591-A7DD-C68DB1EB29E2@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: Sorry I wasn't clear, I believe it was uranium (or some other similarly seriously radioactive element) that was actually in the rock dust that I didn't want to use. I was just trying to explain that radon often forms as a byproduct of the breakdown of heavier elements so if you have a lot of radon in your area one might want to be more suspect of the rock dusts from that area. What was nice though is that the product I was considering did have a complete list of what was in it so I was able to make an informed choice about whether to use it or not. So use caution with rock dusts w/o such a break down. Mike On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Louis Pittman wrote: > To my understanding - and I'm not a nuclear physicist, and don't play one > on TV - is that radon, out in the open, is not a concern. It's a potential > problem when it's seeping into and accumulating in closed spaces > (basements,etc.). I suspect that in an open-field setting, any radon (it > is a gas) that might be present/released would quickly dissipate to > nothingness. > > Lucky > > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Lawrence London > wrote: > > > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Mike Levine wrote: > > > > > I considered using some once, but the particular product we were were > > > looking at had a tiny bit of radioactive material in it. It was just a > > > small amount, but we were advised by a friend who does environmental > > > testing not to use it for that reason. Every little but of radiation > is > > a > > > little bit more you just don't want around. Radon is common in our > area > > > and is formed by the break down of these heavier radioactive elements > so > > > it's believable that even a small amount of radioactive material in > rock > > > dust could be harmful. > > > > > > > Thanks for the heads-up. I have heard about radioactivity issues with > rock > > phosphate, > > particularly the Florida types, possibly Tennessee too, don't know about > > the Idaho. > > As for quarry dusts, I suppose it may exist, maybe with certain types of > > granite (a kind of gravelly rock used for driveways in my region). Radon > is > > a problem in many areas and sealing cracks and perimeter of ground > contact > > concrete slabs is necessary; there may be well water issues too. > > > > I'll check tonight to see if my feet and hands are beginning to glow. As > > for my use of quarry dusts I feel the benefits far outweigh any risks. > > > > > > -- > > Lawrence F. London > > lfljvenaura at gmail.com > > Ello: @ecoponderosa > > https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/ > > https://sites.google.com/site/venaurafarm/ > > __________________ > > nafex mailing list > > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > > message archives > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > > Google message archive search: > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > > nafex list mirror sites: > > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From leeareich at gmail.com Sun May 24 11:52:35 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 11:52:35 -0400 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > > Folks, > > Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. > > I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. > > I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. > > I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. > > I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. > > If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. > > We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. > > Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book > (505)-281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From YearRoundGardening at comcast.net Sun May 24 12:23:59 2015 From: YearRoundGardening at comcast.net (Bob Randall) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 11:23:59 -0500 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> Message-ID: <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. Bob Randall "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" Bob Randall, Ph.D. http://yearroundgardening.me > On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: > > How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >> >> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >> >> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >> >> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >> >> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >> >> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >> >> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >> >> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >> >> Regards, >> >> Jay >> >> Jay Cutts >> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >> (505)-281-0684 >> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >> >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From leeareich at gmail.com Sun May 24 13:03:39 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 13:03:39 -0400 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> Message-ID: While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall wrote: > > With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ > > All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. > > What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. > > I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. > > Bob Randall > > "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" > > Bob Randall, Ph.D. > > http://yearroundgardening.me > > > > > > > > > >> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >> >> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >> http://leereich.com/ >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener's Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>> >>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>> >>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>> >>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>> >>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>> >>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>> >>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>> >>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Jay Cutts >>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>> (505)-281-0684 >>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>> >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From YearRoundGardening at comcast.net Sun May 24 13:47:34 2015 From: YearRoundGardening at comcast.net (Bob Randall) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 12:47:34 -0500 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. Bob "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" Bob Randall. Ph.d. > On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > > While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. > > I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > > http://leereich.com/ > > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >> >> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ > >> >> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >> >> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >> >> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >> >> Bob Randall >> >> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >> >> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >> >> http://yearroundgardening.me >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> >>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>> http://leereich.com/ >>> >>> Books by Lee Reich: >>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>> The Pruning Book >>> Weedless Gardening >>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>> Landscaping with Fruit >>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>> >>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>> >>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>> >>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>> >>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>> >>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>> >>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>> >>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>> >>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Jay Cutts >>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From leeareich at gmail.com Sun May 24 16:45:09 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 16:45:09 -0400 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall wrote: > > What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. > I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or > > http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ > > But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. > > Bob > > > "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" > > Bob Randall. Ph.d. > > > > > > >> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >> >> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >> >> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> http://leereich.com/ > >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener's Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >>> >>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ > >>> >>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>> >>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>> >>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>> >>> Bob Randall >>> >>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>> >>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>> >>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>> >>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>> >>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>> >>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>> The Pruning Book >>>> Weedless Gardening >>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Folks, >>>>> >>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>> >>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>> >>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>> >>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>> >>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>> >>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From YearRoundGardening at comcast.net Mon May 25 13:13:05 2015 From: YearRoundGardening at comcast.net (Bob Randall) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:13:05 -0500 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> Message-ID: Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)? at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do. Here, (what is in the feed stores) ?herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use. If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either. I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I?m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php Bob "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" Bob Randall, Ph.D. http://yearroundgardening.me > On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > > I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. > > Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > > http://leereich.com/ > > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >> >> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. >> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or >> >> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ > >> >> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. >> >> Bob >> >> >> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >> >> Bob Randall. Ph.d. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich > wrote: >>> >>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >>> >>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> >>> http://leereich.com/ > >> >>> >>> Books by Lee Reich: >>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>> The Pruning Book >>> Weedless Gardening >>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>> Landscaping with Fruit >>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall >> wrote: >>>> >>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ >>> >>>> >>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>>> >>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>>> >>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>>> >>>> Bob Randall >>>> >>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>> >>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>>> >>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>>> >>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>>> >>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>>> >>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> message archives >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>> >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From leeareich at gmail.com Mon May 25 14:42:14 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 14:42:14 -0400 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> Message-ID: <2EC632B0-711E-42E8-AA05-1A20E2CAFB25@leereich.com> Yhere?s little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven?t been shown ? as far as I know ? to hold water in practice. I?ve seen the Canadian paper that everyone refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data. Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has been used and replenished over the years. He?s wrong about any wood chip mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same rate as it?s being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen. Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground covered with whatever you can get your hands on. Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall wrote: > > Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)? at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do. > > Here, (what is in the feed stores) ?herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use. > > If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either. > > I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I?m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See > > http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood > > For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php > > Bob > > > "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" > > Bob Randall, Ph.D. > > http://yearroundgardening.me > > > > > > > >> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >> >> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. >> >> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> http://leereich.com/ > >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener's Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >>> >>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. >>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or >>> >>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ > >>> >>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>> >>> Bob Randall. Ph.d. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich > wrote: >>>> >>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >>>> >>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >>>> >>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> >>>> http://leereich.com/ > >> >>>> >>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>> The Pruning Book >>>> Weedless Gardening >>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ >>> >>>>> >>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>>>> >>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>>>> >>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Randall >>>>> >>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>>> >>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> message archives >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>> >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>>> >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From ehilborn at mebtel.net Mon May 25 17:55:57 2015 From: ehilborn at mebtel.net (Elizabeth Hilborn) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 17:55:57 -0400 Subject: [nafex] Berry abundance In-Reply-To: References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us><54F28642.5050908@comcast.net><61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us><55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com><159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com><555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com><42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com><0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net><4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net><38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> Message-ID: <55639A6D.6000307@mebtel.net> I have observed that since a Mockingbird took up residence in my orchard, I am gifted with many more fruits and berries. My Goumis and my Illinois Everbearing mulberry are loaded with fruit. Among the years before the Mockingbird arrived, only unripe fruit would survive the bird mobs on these plants. I am very grateful. I had enough Goumis to try processing this year. I have a Red Gem and a Sweet Scarlet bush. I find the Sweet Scarlet fruit superior in size and flavor, it is sweeter and has more flesh around the seed. Picking was a bit laborious- I had to look and feel the berries to find the soft and ripe ones. Shaking the bush did not yield the number I had hoped, leaving most of the ripe, undamaged fruit on the bush. The berries are astringent when not fully ripe. I see why they are not commercially available - they are so fragile. The weight of two inches of berries in the pail crushed the lower berries. I washed the fruit, separated out the flower ends and boiled/reduced the mass of soft berries. I strained the seeds and stems out and was left with a sweet tart puree that reminds me in color and flavor of a strawberry and rhubarb mixture - no sugar added. Yum. Betsy Hilborn 7a NC From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Mon May 25 21:20:09 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 18:20:09 -0700 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees - a perspective Message-ID: <20150525182009.7D50C083@m0005309.ppops.net> I mulch heavily with leaves and wood chips and could care less the source. My issue is not getting things to grow, it is keeping them from getting too vigorous. The several years when family matters and professional responsibilities keep me from maintaining my soil and plantings were obvious by the reduction in plant vigor and overall health. It takes time to build up your soil and then you need to maintain it. It really is a mini ecosystem whether we are discussing the trunk to the drip line of a tree, a trellis setting or actually intensive garden beds. I have been doing this the better part of 40 years in several different locations, always with similar results. When I don't want vigor (pears for example) I plant in grass or gravel as a mulch. As I said just a perspective and one tempered by much experience. the fluffy bunny _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From dwoodard at becon.org Tue May 26 02:50:09 2015 From: dwoodard at becon.org (dwoodard at becon.org) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 02:50:09 -0400 Subject: [nafex] [ARTICLE] Not Sweet: BC Hazelnut Growers Shoulder the Blight Fight In-Reply-To: <1539753352.634064.1432622488398.JavaMail.root@arbt02> References: <1539753352.634064.1432622488398.JavaMail.root@arbt02> Message-ID: See Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada From orders at cuttsreviews.com Tue May 26 12:00:39 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:00:39 -0600 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> Message-ID: <556498A7.1080708@cuttsreviews.com> Most of my trees are young and don't yet have deep, wide root systems. This is why I'm concerned that what is happening at the surface is affecting them. I have the sense that the grasses are "choking out" the tree. Is that really what happens? The grasses are certainly soaking up any nutrients in the top 6 inches or so of the soil, so if I've put any fertilizer or manure there, I'm concerned that it will never get to the tree roots. Do I have the right picture? I'm afraid that with this Western Wheat Grass, the more I mow it, the denser the root system will become. What would happen if I planted a deep rooted plant like alfalfa around the tree? I think alfalfa might outcompete the grass. Would it allow the nutrients accumulating at the surface to reach the tree roots? I guess that's the bottom line question: How can I let the nutrients that I'm applying on the surface, or that are building up through the mulch on the surface, to feed the tree and not just feed a lush crop of grass while starving the tree? I appreciate the help that you all are providing. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days On 5/24/2015 2:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. > > Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall wrote: >> >> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. >> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or >> >> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ >> >> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. >> >> Bob >> >> >> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >> >> Bob Randall. Ph.d. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> >>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >>> >>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >>> http://leereich.com/ > >>> >>> Books by Lee Reich: >>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>> The Pruning Book >>> Weedless Gardening >>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>> Landscaping with Fruit >>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >>>> >>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ > >>>> >>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>>> >>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>>> >>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>>> >>>> Bob Randall >>>> >>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>> >>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>>> >>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>>> >>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>>> >>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>>> >>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>> message archives >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > From orders at cuttsreviews.com Tue May 26 12:12:13 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:12:13 -0600 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <2EC632B0-711E-42E8-AA05-1A20E2CAFB25@leereich.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> <2EC632B0-711E-42E8-AA05-1A20E2CAFB25@leereich.com> Message-ID: <55649B5D.8030909@cuttsreviews.com> It sounds like the theory is that mulch will 1) keep roots of other plants away from the "feeding" area of the tree, and 2) break down to supply nutrients to the tree as well as holding in moisture. Our invasive grass can send its roots 2-3 feet into an area even if the tops of the grass cannot poke up there. So I can have a mulched area with no grass showing but the area is still completely filled with the grass's feeding roots. So what can I do to keep the area around the tree free from these grass roots? Maybe if I put down weed barrier in a six foot diameter circle around the tree, I might end up with a foot or two circle around the tree without grass roots. But that amounts to basically "paving over" my entire field. And then I have no surface layer of mulch to add nutrients and organic matter at all. Help! In our dry climate wood chips would never break down. They would still be intact wood chips 10 or 15 years later. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) (505) 281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days On 5/25/2015 12:42 PM, Lee Reich wrote: > Yhere?s little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven?t been shown ? as far as I know ? to hold water in practice. I?ve seen the Canadian paper that everyone refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data. > > Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has been used and replenished over the years. He?s wrong about any wood chip mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same rate as it?s being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen. > > Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground covered with whatever you can get your hands on. > > Lee Reich, PhD > Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > http://leereich.com/ > > Books by Lee Reich: > A Northeast Gardener's Year > The Pruning Book > Weedless Gardening > Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden > Landscaping with Fruit > Grow Fruit Naturally > >> On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall wrote: >> >> Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)? at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do. >> >> Here, (what is in the feed stores) ?herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use. >> >> If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either. >> >> I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I?m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See >> >> http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood >> >> For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php >> >> Bob >> >> >> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >> >> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >> >> http://yearroundgardening.me >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >>> >>> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. >>> >>> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. >>> >>> Lee Reich, PhD >>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >>> http://leereich.com/ > >>> >>> Books by Lee Reich: >>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>> The Pruning Book >>> Weedless Gardening >>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>> Landscaping with Fruit >>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >>>> >>>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. >>>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or >>>> >>>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ > >>>> >>>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>> >>>> Bob Randall. Ph.d. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >>>>> >>>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >>>>> >>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> >>>>> http://leereich.com/ > >> >>>>> >>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>> >>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Randall >>>>>> >>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Folks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>>>> message archives >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > > From leeareich at gmail.com Tue May 26 17:04:10 2015 From: leeareich at gmail.com (Lee Reich) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 17:04:10 -0400 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <55649B5D.8030909@cuttsreviews.com> References: <033d01d053bb$e8d1d5c0$ba758140$@oznayim.us> <54F28642.5050908@comcast.net> <61063D57-C518-4A4B-936C-4575076A385C@ginda.us> <55562928.90603@cuttsreviews.com> <159D4A6E-3A53-46B9-8DCF-FD89C856A416@leereich.com> <555BD8D3.4050501@cuttsreviews.com> <42E7480A-CF3D-40AA-B851-D184A3F0AA82@leereich.com> <0E5F554D-6374-4554-9FA5-61E4DD1A679B@comcast.net> <4041DF9C-267C-4C37-8B71-2315EEBFA67A@comcast.net> <38B76985-3B42-4562-8AAF-A7D168E1AF56@leereich.com> <2EC632B0-711E-42E8-AA05-1A20E2CAFB25@leereich.com> <55649B5D.8030909@cuttsreviews.com> Message-ID: <1E49B2BF-4F0B-4A04-8F47-870080A84B6E@leereich.com> I?d say, then, just keep mowing. You gotta respect the grass for being able to grow so well with so little moisture. Or are you irrigating? Lee Reich, PhD Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog http://leereich.com/ Books by Lee Reich: A Northeast Gardener's Year The Pruning Book Weedless Gardening Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden Landscaping with Fruit Grow Fruit Naturally > On May 26, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: > > It sounds like the theory is that mulch will > > 1) keep roots of other plants away from the "feeding" area of the tree, and > > 2) break down to supply nutrients to the tree > > as well as holding in moisture. > > Our invasive grass can send its roots 2-3 feet into an area even if the tops of the grass cannot poke up there. So I can have a mulched area with no grass showing but the area is still completely filled with the grass's feeding roots. > > So what can I do to keep the area around the tree free from these grass roots? Maybe if I put down weed barrier in a six foot diameter circle around the tree, I might end up with a foot or two circle around the tree without grass roots. But that amounts to basically "paving over" my entire field. And then I have no surface layer of mulch to add nutrients and organic matter at all. Help! > > In our dry climate wood chips would never break down. They would still be intact wood chips 10 or 15 years later. > > Regards, > > Jay > > Jay Cutts > Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews > Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book > Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013) > (505) 281-0684 > 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days > > On 5/25/2015 12:42 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >> Yhere?s little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven?t been shown ? as far as I know ? to hold water in practice. I?ve seen the Canadian paper that everyone refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data. >> >> Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has been used and replenished over the years. He?s wrong about any wood chip mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same rate as it?s being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen. >> >> Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground covered with whatever you can get your hands on. >> >> Lee Reich, PhD >> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >> http://leereich.com/ >> >> Books by Lee Reich: >> A Northeast Gardener's Year >> The Pruning Book >> Weedless Gardening >> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >> Landscaping with Fruit >> Grow Fruit Naturally >> >>> On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall wrote: >>> >>> Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)? at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do. >>> >>> Here, (what is in the feed stores) ?herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use. >>> >>> If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either. >>> >>> I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I?m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See >>> >>> http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood >>> >>> For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>> >>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>> >>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>> >>>> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist. >>>> >>>> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers. >>>> >>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >>>> http://leereich.com/ > >>>> >>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>> The Pruning Book >>>> Weedless Gardening >>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even ?thrive.? I have seen them on rock cliffs. >>>>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree ?The Tree of Tener??. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or >>>>> >>>>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ > >>>>> >>>>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>>> >>>>> Bob Randall. Ph.d. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it?s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. >>>>>> >>>>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog > >> >>>>>> http://leereich.com/ > >> >>>>>> >>>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Randall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD >>>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog >>>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich: >>>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year >>>>>>>> The Pruning Book >>>>>>>> Weedless Gardening >>>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden >>>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit >>>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Folks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay Cutts >>>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews >>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards >>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book >>>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684 >>>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>>>>> __________________ >>>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>>>>> message archives >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>>>>> __________________ >>>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > >>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > >>>>>> message archives >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > >>>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > [searchstring] >>>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com > IFNEB Blog >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > >>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > >>>>> __________________ >>>>> nafex mailing list >>>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>>> message archives >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>>> Google message archive search: >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>>> __________________ >>>> nafex mailing list >>>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>>> message archives >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>>> Google message archive search: >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>>> nafex list mirror sites: >>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >>> __________________ >>> nafex mailing list >>> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >>> message archives >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >>> Google message archive search: >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >>> nafex list mirror sites: >>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> __________________ >> nafex mailing list >> nafex at lists.ibiblio.org >> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex >> message archives >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex >> Google message archive search: >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] >> nafex list mirror sites: >> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog >> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist >> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist >> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist >> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared >> >> > > > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared From fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com Wed May 27 01:06:14 2015 From: fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com (fuwa fuwa usagi) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 22:06:14 -0700 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees Message-ID: <20150526220614.697FC4FF@m0048137.ppops.net> My suggestion, run a intermediate term test. Mark off a 10x10 area, wet it down and then add a minimum of 2ft of wood chips and let it sit for a year...then dig a test whole in it and see what has happened. If it has decayed a bit and you have worms and insect activity, as I suspect, add enough mulch to bring it back up to st least 2 ft, and check it again a year later. The key is, the sheer mass of the wood chips will likely create a micro environment that promotes decay. Even in the arid areas of the Gila wilderness there is substantial decay underneath 2 ft of pine needles. This will give you an idea what is truly possible in your area, rather then speculation. 2-3 years to run a test is nothing in the greater scheme of things. tfb _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== From orders at cuttsreviews.com Wed May 27 17:17:07 2015 From: orders at cuttsreviews.com (Jay Cutts) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:17:07 -0600 Subject: [nafex] mulching trees In-Reply-To: <20150526220614.697FC4FF@m0048137.ppops.net> References: <20150526220614.697FC4FF@m0048137.ppops.net> Message-ID: <55663453.3050203@cuttsreviews.com> Thanks for the suggestion. We have plenty of pine needles here and they do break down, mostly mechanically, not biologically. They result in a deep layer of organic matter under the trees but that layer is very dry and not biologically very active. The pine needles break down because they're small. Wood chips are too big and don't do anything. Except immediately after a rain (which happens only a handful of times a year) they are bone dry. Your suggestion of wetting them down is nice but would last about a day. I also personally find wood chips a real pain to work around. They make weeding difficult (and yes the grasses and other weeds grow up right through them) and are uncomfortable to kneel on when working around the tree. Regards, Jay Jay Cutts Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (505)-281-0684 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days On 5/26/2015 11:06 PM, fuwa fuwa usagi wrote: > My suggestion, run a intermediate term test. Mark off a 10x10 area, wet it down and then add a minimum of 2ft of wood chips and let it sit for a year...then dig a test whole in it and see what has happened. If it has decayed a bit and you have worms and insect activity, as I suspect, add enough mulch to bring it back up to st least 2 ft, and check it again a year later. > > The key is, the sheer mass of the wood chips will likely create a micro environment that promotes decay. Even in the arid areas of the Gila wilderness there is substantial decay underneath 2 ft of pine needles. > > This will give you an idea what is truly possible in your area, rather then speculation. > > 2-3 years to run a test is nothing in the greater scheme of things. > > tfb > > _____________________________________________________________ > The Free Email with so much more! > =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== > __________________ > nafex mailing list > nafex at lists.ibiblio.org > Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex > message archives > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex > Google message archive search: > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring] > nafex list mirror sites: > http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog > http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist > http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist > https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist > Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared > From dvidedevo at yahoo.com Sun May 31 20:59:43 2015 From: dvidedevo at yahoo.com (Devin Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 00:59:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nafex] 'Kim' mulberry Message-ID: <336516820.2696069.1433120383146.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Anyone know the skinny on the mulberry variety called 'Kim'? There's a picture of it on Cliff England's webpage taken by Robert Hamilton or NAFEX. It seems remarkable in size, yet I can't find any info about it anywhere. I'm not sure if the list will allow pictures posted to email, but here goes. If not, go to http://www.nuttrees.net/ and click on 'fruit trees', then 'mulberry'. Also notable is 'korean', which I assume is the same as Kokuso 20. From dvidedevo at yahoo.com Sun May 31 21:08:45 2015 From: dvidedevo at yahoo.com (Devin Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 01:08:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nafex] Pakistan mulberry Message-ID: <1540734613.2664695.1433120925604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I have been thinking about trialing Pakistan mulberry here in Vermont. I understand that it is a real long shot, but given the fact that much of the limitation seems to revolve around 'low chill' requirment, it might just work. Hardiness-wise, I understand Atlanta area saw sub-zero temps. for a couple of nights this past winter. Did those of you in the south who are growing Pakistan experience severe dieback this winter? I'm thinking that our winter weather is consistent enough that the trees would stay dormant, and then I could 1. grow them on the own roots so they can resprout if need be and 2. plant in a protected spot with some extra protection as people do with figs. They sure are delicious, so I think its worth a shot. I also noticed perusing the GRIN database that several other similar selections are available, listed as Morus macroura or 'himalayan mulberry.' One in particular DMOR 9? looks similar to 'pakistan', though a bit scrawnier, and the description seems to suggest zone 5 hardiness, though on second look I noticed this is merely a snippet from a seed savers exchange write-up about the species. Anyone know anything about hardy higher-chill macroura selections that might be a good stand in for 'pakistan'? From spidra at gmail.com Sun May 31 21:20:17 2015 From: spidra at gmail.com (Spidra Webster) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:20:17 -0700 Subject: [nafex] Pakistan mulberry In-Reply-To: <1540734613.2664695.1433120925604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1540734613.2664695.1433120925604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just FYI, I heard from folks who attended Wolfskill's mulberry tasting this year that they're getting more GRIN requests than they can handle from hobbyists so they won't be sending out to individuals any longer. If you live near a local group like a CRFG chapter or a local horticulture group of some kind, you can do a group order of material. Megan Lynch Zone 10b, South Pasadena, CA http://www.meganlynch.net