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  • From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Market Gardening is NOT Permaculture.
  • Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 19:36:12 -0000


Kevin, I have killed almost 800 foxes on my farm. I love foxes and really don't enjoy killing them. We had a few years that there were two fox burrows with families on the farm that I knew about and I tried to tell these foxes that if they left mine alone that I would not come after them. That actually worked for a while but eventually they have eaten all the wildlive and they really have no choice but to break the truce. And then I do go after them reluctantly. Until it becomes clear how many foxes there are around when I become a bit more careless and more efficient.
Thing is that if one particular fox is taking poultry (one and sometimes two ducks or hens a day, every day, and a goose on Sundays) and I want to take out this particular fox it takes me around 40 hours of tracking and sitting out in the rain and waiting until you get so frozen you can no longer pull that trigger when your fox does show himself. I can usually sense in what general area this fox is hiding out and often I feel that he knows that I know that he knows.
When I simply put traps and snares on all the fox paths that I have found it only takes me an hour or two. And often I will catch 3-4 foxes the first night (record is 15 in one night). If poultry keeps disappearing I keep up the trapping and I may kill 20 or more foxes before I get the culprit. I really don't like doing this but there really is no choice when you can not afford loosing so many expensive birds. We have old breeds and they get to hatch their own eggs and it takes at least 8-9 months of feeding before they are useful for anything. (a modern broiler is exactly 31 days old when you see it lying in the supermarket but this breed does not survive even one day in the open here).

Long story but the long and short of it is that if you want to survive and you can't afford the losses you HAVE to do something about it. I am sure that hedgehogs, rabbits, hares and ground breeding birds like their lives too and if I don't thin out the foxes they get exterminated. And no, fox skins have no value in Europe. No woman would be willing to be seen in a fox fur coat. I give the brushes/tails to a friend who is in a gunclub that pays 1 euro for them.

I can understand that you like raccoons and so do I. But again if it were a matter of survival... It is impossible to completely fox or mink proof here unless you really completely restrict your birds in their natural movements. And I am certain that your raccoons are even handier in getting in a pen. I also know for a fact that raccoon stew is a good bit tastier than fox stew. :)
And squirrell is not at all bad to eat either. Here we still have the red squirrel and I would not like the kill one of the very few around. We have otters frequenting our fish pond but I can not kill those either. So far they have not done too much damage. Mink is far worse (they were bred for the fur here but when that trade collapsed some 20 years ago they were let loose in the environment and they have been a curse for anything alive) and I will get any I can.
I do not kill ravens or birds of prey but magpies and grey crows are so plentiful that I feel I have to try and do something about them. That is easy when you hear young nestlings screaming that are being taken by magpies or when you find lambs with the eyes and tongue gone but still alive and a flock of these grey-backs taking off.
No, it is not an easy life.
All the best,
John



John,

I tell you what, varmits is a real problem. I will happily donate to
you one of our urban coyotes. That'll take care of your foxes & minks.
Can you harvest them for their pelts? Our wild foxes are gone, but
were never very numerous. It's the raccoons that come after our
chickens. You have to raccoon proof the pens, not a simple task. They
love to eat the oil gland on the chicken rump, which pretty much kills
the chicken. I grew up on the bayou and we hand raised about 20
raccoon kits each year. It is very hard for me to treat them as an
enemy. The coyotes also pose a certain threat to the chickens, but to
a lesser degree since there are fewer of them.

It's the squirrels that are the worst. They will eat ALL your fruits
and fruiting vegetables. There have been several early mornings that I
have been caught by the neighbors, whilst in my drawers, trying to
eradicate them by hook or by crook. I still can't get my friends or
family to dine on city squirrel. We have lost many large trees in the
city due to hurricanes & drought and with them the hawks & owls. That
is why there are so many squirrels. I definitely advocate for and
plant a lot of timber species around town to provide for predatory
bird habitat. It also brings their prey, squirrels. You made me
realize I spend a lot of my time in the the warmer months trapping or
dispatching varmits. It ain't such easy livin'!

Kevin Topek



On Jan 30, 2014, at 6:09 PM, John D'hondt wrote:

Predation is one of our problems too Kevin. But the annual garden
traditionally suffered much more than our tree crops from small
rodents as
did our poultry and lambs from foxes and mink.
Since suitable predators of varmints have disappeared in many places
there
is no option but to do some thinning of pests ourselves. There have
been
years that I spent fully half my time on only that.
John


I'm going to agree with Toby on this issue of productivity. I have an
urban garden on the Texas Gulf Coast that produces a fair bit of
citrus with some stone & pome fruits too. Vegetables are far more
productive in the long run. My predation issues on nuts are extreme
and that also goes for stone & pome fruits and especially papayas.
The
urban garden predators here are squirrels, rats, raccoons & opossums.
The citrus is usually left alone, except the raccoons will eat the
mandarins that are easy to peel. Tree canopy encourages predation by
tree climbing/dwelling species. It is a difficult task to get fruit
to
the point of harvest. Gotta pick the papayas early!

Kevin Topek
www.permaculturedesign.net



On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:00 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

Food forests need inputs, too. Most of the food forests I've
seen--20 or 30 at this point--provide fruit and berries for part of
the year, with potential for freezing and drying (energy inputs) to
extend the fruit harvest, and a few yield modest amounts of nuts for
their owners. At this point, few of them are old enough (10-15
years) to yield many nuts, and animal competition for nuts is a huge
problem. Some of them supply greens, but most of them are beset with
huge insect and fungal problems from too-high plant density and
moisture levels. You can run chickens in them to eat bugs, but the
chickens eat the food plants, too.

Food forests require large inputs of mulch, as Darrell says-- the
very small one at my rental property gets several yards each year--
and don't yet supply many calories. You can't live on fruit. In
theory, food forests could do better, but in practice they seem damn
hard to manage, and provide trivial amounts of food. Everyone I know
with a food forest gets their calories from annual grains, tubers,
squashes, beans, and other non-food forest plants, just like
everyone else. Very few people get most of their calories from nuts.
I keep hearing (and used to say myself) that food forests are the
way to grow lots of food, but I'm not seeing it happening. Lots of
theory and "this is such a great idea that it's got to work!" with
no real data or experience, and very few calories actually coming
out of food forests. And plenty of inputs going in.

It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must
provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need
inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient
extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply
love the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial
producers of dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at
this point.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:


Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export
vegetables and
thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could
be used
for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle
under
it's own power.
For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed
system. They
would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they
would
return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers.
Unthinkable
now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil
you run
into serious problems after about 20 years.
John

well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I
have
seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some
ideal
dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy
equations,
that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground
for
disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a
profession
that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
disuss it.
When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at
the
time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of
Permacuture
Market Gardening.

Darrell
Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
<april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
but they are not the permaculture message.
Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient
cycle,
so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
permaculture it muddies the message.
When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and
organic
matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
management.

When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every
second
weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the
reduced
work load is clear here.
http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/

-- *April S-Kelly*
Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
Australia
Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
<http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
*Please consider your environment before printing this email on
old-fashioned paper.*

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher
nesbitt)
6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org>
Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
"permaculture "
was?
I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach
permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
"Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in
realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the
imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
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permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
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How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org>
Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
"permaculture "
was?
I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach
permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
"Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in
realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the
imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014:
Permaculture
Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/

New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature
Connection,
and Natural Health

by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013

in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>,
Climate
Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
consciousness/
,
Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth
Ways'
Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>,
Forest
Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>,
Natural
Pest
Control
<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>,
Nature
Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/
,
News
& Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
permaculture/>,
Survival
Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>

July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM 2014. Anam Cara, Inverness,
Highland,
Scotland.

This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
combination.
It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways
has
developed over the years.

Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete
when
people
are as healthy as they can be.

Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on
nature.
Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an
essential
first
step.

I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high
standards.
Even better than the last one with our new addition to our
crew:
Klaudia
van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and
Georgina
Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at
Anam
Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.

Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
Permaculture
Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to
nature
and
learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina
Richardson. She
is a
natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a
permaculture
diet?
and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to
experience how
our
body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for
the
planet
AND good for us!
You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
relaxing
and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover
the
magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.

The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will
be
upheld by
the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of
Nature
Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.

Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.

We?d love you to join us.

More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/

or here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/
72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/


<>
FAQ

*- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *

If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so
wonderful,
please read on:

- Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and
unusual
yet
effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
lifting the
level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
Please check out
the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
share with
you.
- Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us
excellent
nature observation opportunities.
- Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life
can
be
like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
balanced diet
one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give
you
the
tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
- The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
how to change
an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
permaculture
principles you?ll learn.
- A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a
wide
variety of expertise available from the teachers.
- Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours
tuition
required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional
learning
opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
experience.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
completely.?

I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
how
to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest).

I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
and
his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
was
complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps
it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
together.?

here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
"permaculture "
was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach
permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
"Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in
realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the
imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/
permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb
10-22nd
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of
the
oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC
with
great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.


9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through
22nd,
2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014

Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE

Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.

Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in
the
farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of
the
course.

For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
info(a)mmrfbz.org.

Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands
on
experience, participants will gain the tools to create
sustainable,
ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities.
Tucked
into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from
the
village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO
that
promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.

With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this
venue. A
fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010
PDC
on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.

Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law,
and
produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation
of
the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities
and
government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He
has
been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.

Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving,
ecology,
and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
living and working in both urban and rural locations. She
currently
teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education
Center,
Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds
an
advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has
participated in
permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of
Haiti.
She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.

Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-
picture
website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have
been
chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as
the
most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament.
The
site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology,
population
and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a
state
of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
international speaker on energy and global finance. She has
lectured
in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia
and
New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole
was
Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
on
of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at
the
Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in
nuclear
safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and
conducted
research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology
from
Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
water pollution control, the common professional examination in
law
and an LLM in international law in development from the
University of
Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the
top
science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
school graduate in 1997.

Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical
agroforestry
and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He
represented
Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and
Guatemala.
He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps,
and
teaches agroforestry.

A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being
offered
by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two
boys,
Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants
must
be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a
farmer,
extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing,
and
a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in
this
course.

*Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves
must
be paid by the students.





_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm






------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael
Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
completely.?
I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
know
how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
to me
and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
she
was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
together.?
here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
where the "permaculture " was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach
permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
encompasses
all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
help
clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
to live
a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
includes a
forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a
mix.
Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
and
where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
includes
time management, succession planning, resource conservation,
and a
goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
article
in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
an open
mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
experience
the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
decades, and
comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
Bill
Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
confuse
his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
presentation by
Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
novices? of
permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
taught
permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not
think
mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
1981
and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He
wrote
in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed
it
for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
some
of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
experience
in > organic food production... >
Its more than clear now that some of the
"Mollsionisms" ("The >
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
etc.) >
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
also >
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
PC >
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
one >
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
since >
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
some >
systems and realize that not everything works as well in
realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
definitly
not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
courses"),
and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
ground", >
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
evolve >
over time in different climates & contexts, that the
imaginative >
power of PC concepts get grounded. >
saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://
www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems
with >
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and >
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I think my main objection to the article is that the author
seems
to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to
me. ?I
do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need
to
document our results and am happy that activity is increasing.
But
I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I
get
such huge yields in the first year with little work from some
small
plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and
tropical
vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than
lettuce
and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on
my
fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy
net
profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
"wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand,
til I
transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban
plots
contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals
and
chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and
fruit
instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I
can
buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban
area
would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term).
Do I
wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor
would it
be the preferred way to do
commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I
think
that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well
aware of
how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my
part
to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful.
Meanwhile, I
garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?

There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?
There
is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their
lawns
into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How
can
that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the
work
that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the
principles
of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of
farming.?

Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing
things
too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell
them -
"I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years.
Be
sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
?
?



On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
completely.?
I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
know
how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
to me
and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
she
was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
together.?
here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


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On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the
article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
where the "permaculture " was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach
permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
encompasses
all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
help
clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
to live
a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
includes a
forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a
mix.
Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
and
where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
includes
time management, succession planning, resource conservation,
and a
goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
article
in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
an open
mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
experience
the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
decades, and
comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
Bill
Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
confuse
his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
presentation by
Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
novices? of
permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
taught
permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not
think
mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
1981
and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He
wrote
in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed
it
for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
some
of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
experience
in > organic food production... >
Its more than clear now that some of the
"Mollsionisms" ("The >
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
etc.) >
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
also >
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
PC >
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
one >
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
since >
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
some >
systems and realize that not everything works as well in
realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
definitly
not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
courses"),
and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
ground", >
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
evolve >
over time in different climates & contexts, that the
imaginative >
power of PC concepts get grounded. >
saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

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