permaculture

[Jay Woods <woodsjaya@gmail.com>]

I can only agree, Kevin.

The squirrels did have several fruits and nuts that they wouldn't bother 
much: 
apricots, apples, and black walnuts. Others didn't do as well: English 
walnuts, hazelnuts, pears, and peaches were bothered to extinction. As I 
don't 
raise annuals due to the lack of talent of them I can not speak. My lack of 
talent unfortunately extended to how to kill and eat the sweet things. 

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 09:54:50 PM Kevin Topek wrote:
> John,
> 
> I tell you what, varmits is a real problem. I will happily donate to
> you one of our urban coyotes. That'll take care of your foxes & minks.
> Can you harvest them for their pelts? Our wild foxes are gone, but
> were never very numerous. It's the raccoons that come after our
> chickens. You have to raccoon proof the pens, not a simple task. They
> love to eat the oil gland on the chicken rump, which pretty much kills
> the chicken. I grew up on the bayou and we hand raised about 20
> raccoon kits each year. It is very hard for me to treat them as an
> enemy. The coyotes also pose a certain threat to the chickens, but to
> a lesser degree since there are fewer of them.
> 
> It's the squirrels that are the worst. They will eat ALL your fruits
> and fruiting vegetables. There have been several early mornings that I
> have been caught by the neighbors, whilst in my drawers, trying to
> eradicate them by hook or by crook. I still can't get my friends or
> family to dine on city squirrel. We have lost many large trees in the
> city due to hurricanes & drought and with them the hawks & owls. That
> is why there are so many squirrels. I definitely advocate for and
> plant a lot of timber species around town to provide for predatory
> bird habitat. It also brings their prey, squirrels. You made me
> realize I spend a lot of my time in the the warmer months trapping or
> dispatching varmits. It ain't such easy livin'!
> 
> Kevin Topek
> 
> On Jan 30, 2014, at 6:09 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> > Predation is one of our problems too Kevin. But the annual garden
> > traditionally suffered much more than our tree crops from small
> > rodents as
> > did our poultry and lambs from foxes and mink.
> > Since suitable predators of varmints have disappeared in many places
> > there
> > is no option but to do some thinning of pests ourselves. There have
> > been
> > years that I spent fully half my time on only that.
> > John
> > 
> >> I'm going to agree with Toby on this issue of productivity. I have an
> >> urban garden on the Texas Gulf Coast that produces a fair bit of
> >> citrus with some stone & pome fruits too. Vegetables are far more
> >> productive in the long run. My predation issues on nuts are extreme
> >> and that also goes for stone & pome fruits and especially papayas.
> >> The
> >> urban garden predators here are squirrels, rats, raccoons & opossums.
> >> The citrus is usually left alone, except the raccoons will eat the
> >> mandarins that are easy to peel. Tree canopy encourages predation by
> >> tree climbing/dwelling species. It is a difficult task to get fruit
> >> to
> >> the point of harvest. Gotta pick the papayas early!
> >> 
> >> Kevin Topek
> >> www.permaculturedesign.net
> >> 
> >> On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:00 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >>> Food forests need inputs, too. Most of the food forests I've
> >>> seen--20 or 30 at this point--provide fruit and berries for part of
> >>> the year, with potential for freezing and drying (energy inputs) to
> >>> extend the fruit harvest, and a few yield modest amounts of nuts for
> >>> their owners. At this point, few of them are old enough (10-15
> >>> years) to yield many nuts, and animal competition for nuts is a huge
> >>> problem. Some of them supply greens, but most of them are beset with
> >>> huge insect and fungal problems from too-high plant density and
> >>> moisture levels. You can run chickens in them to eat bugs, but the
> >>> chickens eat the food plants, too.
> >>> 
> >>> Food forests require large inputs of mulch, as Darrell says-- the
> >>> very small one at my rental property gets several yards each year--
> >>> and don't yet supply many calories. You can't live on fruit.  In
> >>> theory, food forests could do better, but in practice they seem damn
> >>> hard to manage, and provide trivial amounts of food. Everyone I know
> >>> with a food forest gets their calories from annual grains, tubers,
> >>> squashes, beans, and other non-food forest plants, just like
> >>> everyone else. Very few people get most of their calories from nuts.
> >>> I keep hearing (and used to say myself) that food forests are the
> >>> way to grow lots of food, but I'm not seeing it happening. Lots of
> >>> theory and "this is such a great idea that it's got to work!" with
> >>> no real data or experience, and very few calories actually coming
> >>> out of food forests. And plenty of inputs going in.
> >>> 
> >>> It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must
> >>> provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need
> >>> inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient
> >>> extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply
> >>> love the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial
> >>> producers of dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at
> >>> this point.
> >>> 
> >>> Toby
> >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:
> >>>> Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export
> >>>> vegetables and
> >>>> thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could
> >>>> be used
> >>>> for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle
> >>>> under
> >>>> it's own power.
> >>>> For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed
> >>>> system. They
> >>>> would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they
> >>>> would
> >>>> return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers.
> >>>> Unthinkable
> >>>> now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil
> >>>> you run
> >>>> into serious problems after about 20 years.
> >>>> John
> >>>> 
> >>>>> well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
> >>>>> there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some
> >>>>> ideal
> >>>>> dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy
> >>>>> equations,
> >>>>> that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a
> >>>>> profession
> >>>>> that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
> >>>>> disuss it.
> >>>>> When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
> >>>>> with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of
> >>>>> Permacuture
> >>>>> Market Gardening.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Darrell
> >>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New 
Society
> >>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
> >>>>> <april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> but they are not the permaculture message.
> >>>>>> Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
> >>>>>> constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
> >>>>>> as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient
> >>>>>> cycle,
> >>>>>> so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
> >>>>>> permaculture it muddies the message.
> >>>>>> When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and
> >>>>>> organic
> >>>>>> matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
> >>>>>> management.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every
> >>>>>> second
> >>>>>> weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
> >>>>>> we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
> >>>>>> So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the
> >>>>>> reduced
> >>>>>> work load is clear here.
> >>>>>> http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-diffe
> >>>>>> rence-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -- *April S-Kelly*
> >>>>>> Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> >>>>>> Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
> >>>>>> Australia
> >>>>>> Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> >>>>>> Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> >>>>>> We are a carbon-negative business. 
http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> >>>>>> <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> >>>>>> *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> >>>>>> old-fashioned paper.*
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> >>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>>>>> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>>>>>> permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> >>>>>>> specific
> >>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Today's Topics:
> >>>>>>>  1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >>>>>>>  2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >>>>>>>  3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
> >>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>     Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
> >>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>  4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
> >>>>>>>  5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> nesbitt)
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >>>>>>>  7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 1
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> >>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID: 
<20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> >>>>>>> visited
> >>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> >>>>>>> Design,
> >>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> >>>>>>> "permaculture "
> >>>>>>> was?
> >>>>>>> I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> >>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> >>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> >>>>>>> encompasses all
> >>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> >>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> >>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> >>>>>>> not how
> >>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >>>>>>> permaculture design .
> >>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> >>>>>>> ecologically
> >>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> >>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some 
may
> >>>>>>> mulch,
> >>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> >>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> >>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> >>>>>>> achieve the
> >>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> >>>>>>> such self
> >>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> >>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> >>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short 
on
> >>>>>>> experience .
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> >>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> >>>>>>> advice.
> >>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> >>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> >>>>>>> he, or
> >>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> >>>>>>> with no
> >>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> >>>>>>> entirely. I
> >>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> >>>>>>> at my
> >>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> >>>>>>> "Great
> >>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> >>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> >>>>>>>> some of
> >>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable 
experience
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> organic food production...
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> >>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> >>>>>>>> PC
> >>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> >>>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> >>>>>>>> realiity as
> >>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> >>>>>>>> definitly not
> >>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> >>>>>>>> prominent
> >>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody 
in
> >>>>>>>> thios
> >>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> >>>>>>>> courses"), and
> >>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> >>>>>>>> systems,
> >>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> >>>>>>>> evolve
> >>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> >>>>>>>> imaginative
> >>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Holger
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> escribi?:
> >>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permacu
> >>>>>> lture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> >>>>>>>>> uninformed
> >>>>>>>>> are up to
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:  
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  
http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 2
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> >>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID: 
<20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> >>>>>>> visited
> >>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> >>>>>>> Design,
> >>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> >>>>>>> "permaculture "
> >>>>>>> was?
> >>>>>>> I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> >>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> >>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> >>>>>>> encompasses all
> >>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> >>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> >>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> >>>>>>> not how
> >>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >>>>>>> permaculture design .
> >>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> >>>>>>> ecologically
> >>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> >>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some 
may
> >>>>>>> mulch,
> >>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> >>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> >>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> >>>>>>> achieve the
> >>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> >>>>>>> such self
> >>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> >>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> >>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short 
on
> >>>>>>> experience .
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> >>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> >>>>>>> advice.
> >>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> >>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> >>>>>>> he, or
> >>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> >>>>>>> with no
> >>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> >>>>>>> entirely. I
> >>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> >>>>>>> at my
> >>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> >>>>>>> "Great
> >>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> >>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> >>>>>>>> some of
> >>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable 
experience
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> organic food production...
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> >>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> >>>>>>>> PC
> >>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> >>>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> >>>>>>>> realiity as
> >>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> >>>>>>>> definitly not
> >>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> >>>>>>>> prominent
> >>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody 
in
> >>>>>>>> thios
> >>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> >>>>>>>> courses"), and
> >>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> >>>>>>>> systems,
> >>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> >>>>>>>> evolve
> >>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> >>>>>>>> imaginative
> >>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Holger
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> escribi?:
> >>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permacu
> >>>>>> lture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> >>>>>>>>> uninformed
> >>>>>>>>> are up to
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:  
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  
http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 3
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> >>>>>>> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014:
> >>>>>>> Permaculture
> >>>>>>> Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>>> <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-
J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep 
Nature
> >>>>>>> Connection,
> >>>>>>> and Natural Health
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>,
> >>>>>>> Climate
> >>>>>>> Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> >>>>>>> consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
> >>>>>>> consciousness/
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth
> >>>>>>> Ways'
> >>>>>>> Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> >>>>>>> Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> >>>>>>> Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> >>>>>>> evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>,
> >>>>>>> Forest
> >>>>>>> Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> >>>>>>> Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>,
> >>>>>>> Natural
> >>>>>>> Pest
> >>>>>>> Control
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>,
> >>>>>> Nature
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> News
> >>>>>>> & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> >>>>>>> Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> >>>>>>> Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
> >>>>>>> permaculture/>,
> >>>>>>> Survival
> >>>>>>> Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> >>>>>>> Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> >>>>>>> Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> >>>>>>> Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness,
> >>>>>>> Highland,
> >>>>>>> Scotland.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
> >>>>>>> combination.
> >>>>>>> It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> developed over the years.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete
> >>>>>>> when
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> are as healthy as they can be.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on
> >>>>>>> nature.
> >>>>>>> Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an
> >>>>>>> essential
> >>>>>>> first
> >>>>>>> step.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high
> >>>>>>> standards.
> >>>>>>> Even  better than the last one with our new addition to our
> >>>>>>> crew:
> >>>>>>> Klaudia
> >>>>>>> van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and
> >>>>>>> Georgina
> >>>>>>> Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at
> >>>>>>> Anam
> >>>>>>> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
> >>>>>>> Permaculture
> >>>>>>> Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected 
to
> >>>>>>> nature
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina
> >>>>>>> Richardson. She
> >>>>>>> is a
> >>>>>>> natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a
> >>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>> diet?
> >>>>>>> and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to
> >>>>>>> experience how
> >>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>> body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> planet
> >>>>>>> AND good for us!
> >>>>>>> You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
> >>>>>>> relaxing
> >>>>>>> and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can 
discover
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> upheld by
> >>>>>>> the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of
> >>>>>>> Nature
> >>>>>>> Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> >>>>>>> Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> We?d love you to join us.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> >>>>>>> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> or here:
> >>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/
> >>>>>> 
72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/721
> >>>>>> 57634771197666/>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> <>
> >>>>>>> FAQ
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so
> >>>>>>> wonderful,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> please read on:
> >>>>>>>  - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> unusual
> >>>>>>> yet
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> lifting the
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Please check out
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> share with
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  you.
> >>>>>>>  - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> excellent
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  nature observation opportunities.
> >>>>>>>  - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> balanced diet
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
> >>>>>>>  - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
> >>>>>>>  permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> how to change
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  principles you?ll learn.
> >>>>>>>  - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> wide
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  variety of expertise available from the teachers.
> >>>>>>>  - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> tuition
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> learning
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>  opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> experience.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 4
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> >>>>>>> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>>> 
<1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> >>>>>>> completely.?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> >>>>>>> was a
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> >>>>>> how
> >>>>>> to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> >>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> >>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
> >>>>>> every
> >>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> >>>>>> forest).
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> >>>>>> was
> >>>>>> complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> >>>>>> Perhaps
> >>>>>> it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> >>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> >>>>>> suspect
> >>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> >>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> >>>>>> together.?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> minutes 37 seconds.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> >>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> >>>>>>> visited
> >>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> >>>>>>> Design,
> >>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> >>>>>>> "permaculture "
> >>>>>>> was?
> >>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with 
many
> >>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> >>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> >>>>>>> encompasses all
> >>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> >>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> >>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> >>>>>>> not how
> >>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >>>>>>> permaculture design .
> >>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> >>>>>>> ecologically
> >>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> >>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some 
may
> >>>>>>> mulch,
> >>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> >>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> >>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> >>>>>>> achieve the
> >>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> >>>>>>> such self
> >>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> >>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> >>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short 
on
> >>>>>>> experience .
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> >>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> >>>>>>> advice.
> >>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> >>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> >>>>>>> he, or
> >>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> >>>>>>> with no
> >>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> >>>>>>> entirely. I
> >>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> >>>>>>> at my
> >>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> >>>>>>> "Great
> >>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> >>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> >>>>>>>> some of
> >>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable 
experience
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> organic food production...
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> >>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> >>>>>>>> PC
> >>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> >>>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> >>>>>>>> realiity as
> >>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> >>>>>>>> definitly not
> >>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> >>>>>>>> prominent
> >>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody 
in
> >>>>>>>> thios
> >>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> >>>>>>>> courses"), and
> >>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> >>>>>>>> systems,
> >>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> >>>>>>>> evolve
> >>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> >>>>>>>> imaginative
> >>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Holger
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> escribi?:
> >>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permacu
> >>>>>> lture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> >>>>>>>>> uninformed
> >>>>>>>>> are up to
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:? 
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? 
http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/
> >>>>>>> permaculture/
> >>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>>>>> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 5
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> >>>>>>> From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> >>>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb
> >>>>>>> 10-22nd
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-
D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF 
has
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through
> >>>>>>> 22nd,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, 
BELIZE
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, 
all
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> course.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> info(a)mmrfbz.org.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> experience, participants will gain the tools to create
> >>>>>> sustainable,
> >>>>>> ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities.
> >>>>>> Tucked
> >>>>>> into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
> >>>>>> Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered 
NGO
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
> >>>>>> security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from 
an
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
> >>>>>> Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
> >>>>>> chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this
> >>>>>> venue. A
> >>>>>> fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 
2010
> >>>>>> PDC
> >>>>>> on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
> >>>>>> Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
> >>>>>> infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He
> >>>>>> has
> >>>>>> been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
> >>>>>> specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving,
> >>>>>> ecology,
> >>>>>> and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
> >>>>>> living and working in both urban and rural locations. She
> >>>>>> currently
> >>>>>> teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
> >>>>>> University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
> >>>>>> Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
> >>>>>> Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education
> >>>>>> Center,
> >>>>>> Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha 
holds
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>> advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has
> >>>>>> participated in
> >>>>>> permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
> >>>>>> Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of
> >>>>>> Haiti.
> >>>>>> She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-
> >>>>>>> picture
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>> chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament.
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>> site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology,
> >>>>>> population
> >>>>>> and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a
> >>>>>> state
> >>>>>> of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
> >>>>>> international speaker on energy and global finance. She has
> >>>>>> lectured
> >>>>>> in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a 
variety of
> >>>>>> countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
> >>>>>> permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
> >>>>>> Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole
> >>>>>> was
> >>>>>> Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
> >>>>>> finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
> >>>>>> development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in
> >>>>>> nuclear
> >>>>>> safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and
> >>>>>> conducted
> >>>>>> research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
> >>>>>> significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
> >>>>>> consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
> >>>>>> neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
> >>>>>> water pollution control, the common professional examination in
> >>>>>> law
> >>>>>> and an LLM in international law in development from the
> >>>>>> University of
> >>>>>> Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the
> >>>>>> top
> >>>>>> science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
> >>>>>> school graduate in 1997.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical
> >>>>>> agroforestry
> >>>>>> and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
> >>>>>> since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
> >>>>>> permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
> >>>>>> elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
> >>>>>> chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to 
organic
> >>>>>> certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
> >>>>>> founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
> >>>>>> worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
> >>>>>> Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He
> >>>>>> represented
> >>>>>> Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and
> >>>>>> Guatemala.
> >>>>>> He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
> >>>>>> protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> teaches agroforestry.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being
> >>>>>>> offered
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. 
Anne
> >>>>>> Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
> >>>>>> agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
> >>>>>> Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two
> >>>>>> boys,
> >>>>>> Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants
> >>>>>> must
> >>>>>> be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
> >>>>>> communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a
> >>>>>> farmer,
> >>>>>> extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
> >>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> course.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves
> >>>>>>> must
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> be paid by the students.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> _____________________________
> >>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Maya Mountain Research Farm
> >>>>>>> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> >>>>>>> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> >>>>>>> BELIZE,
> >>>>>>> Central America
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Country code 501-630-4386
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> www.mmrfbz.org
> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 6
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> >>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael
> >>>>>>> Pilarski
> >>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID: 
<20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> >>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> >>>>>>> completely.?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> >>>>>>>> was a
> >>>>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
> >>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
> >>>>>>>> the PC
> >>>>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> >>>>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such 
as
> >>>>>>>> every
> >>>>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> >>>>>>>> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
> >>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
> >>>>>>>> to me
> >>>>>>>> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
> >>>>>>>> she
> >>>>>>>> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked 
untidy.
> >>>>>>>> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
> >>>>>>>> peak
> >>>>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> >>>>>>>> suspect
> >>>>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> >>>>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> >>>>>>>> together.?
> >>>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> >>>>>>>> minutes 37 seconds. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people 
have
> >>>>>>>> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and 
questioned
> >>>>>>>> where the "permaculture " was?
> >>>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> >>>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> >>>>>>>> encompasses
> >>>>>>>> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
> >>>>>>>> on many
> >>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> >>>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> >>>>>>>> not how
> >>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >>>>>>>> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
> >>>>>>>> help
> >>>>>>>> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
> >>>>>>>> to live
> >>>>>>>> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
> >>>>>>>> includes a
> >>>>>>>> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally 
a
> >>>>>>>> mix.
> >>>>>>>> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> >>>>>>>> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
> >>>>>>>> includes
> >>>>>>>> time management, succession planning, resource 
conservation,
> >>>>>>>> and a
> >>>>>>>> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
> >>>>>>>> article
> >>>>>>>> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
> >>>>>>>> an open
> >>>>>>>> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
> >>>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>>> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
> >>>>>>>> decades, and
> >>>>>>>> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
> >>>>>>>> Bill
> >>>>>>>> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
> >>>>>>>> confuse
> >>>>>>>> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
> >>>>>>>> presentation by
> >>>>>>>> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
> >>>>>>>> novices? of
> >>>>>>>> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
> >>>>>>>> taught
> >>>>>>>> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did 
not
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
> >>>>>>>> 1981
> >>>>>>>> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. 
He
> >>>>>>>> wrote
> >>>>>>>> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he 
signed
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> for me. Work indeed!
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> >>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read 
though
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
> >>>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>>> in > organic food production... >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the
> >>>>>>>>> "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> >>>>>>>> etc.) >
> >>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> >>>>>>>> also >
> >>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> >>>>>>>> PC >
> >>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> >>>>>>>> one >
> >>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> >>>>>>>> since >
> >>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> >>>>>>>> some >
> >>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> >>>>>>>> realiity as
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> >>>>>>>>> definitly
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> >>>>>>>>> prominent
> >>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think 
nobody in
> >>>>>>>>> thios
> >>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> >>>>>>>>> courses"),
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
> >>>>>>>> ground", >
> >>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> >>>>>>>> systems,
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> >>>>>>>>> evolve >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> >>>>>>>> imaginative >
> >>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Holger
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> escribi?:
> >>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-perma
> >>>>>>>> culture
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> >>>>>>>>>> uninformed
> >>>>>>>>>> are up to
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>>> message archives:?
> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://
> >>>>>>>>> www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems
> >>>>>>>>> with >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and >
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:? 
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? 
http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> >>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:  
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  
http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> >>>>>>>> landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Message: 7
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> >>>>>>> From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>>>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>>> 
<1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I think my main objection to the article is that the author
> >>>>>>> seems
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
> >>>>>> permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
> >>>>>> balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to
> >>>>>> me. ?I
> >>>>>> do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
> >>>>>> assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we 
need
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> document our results and am happy that activity is increasing.
> >>>>>> But
> >>>>>> I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I
> >>>>>> get
> >>>>>> such huge yields in the first year with little work from some
> >>>>>> small
> >>>>>> plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
> >>>>>> hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and
> >>>>>> tropical
> >>>>>> vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than
> >>>>>> lettuce
> >>>>>> and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
> >>>>>> attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on
> >>>>>> my
> >>>>>> fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very 
healthy
> >>>>>> net
> >>>>>> profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
> >>>>>> "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand,
> >>>>>> til I
> >>>>>> transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban
> >>>>>> plots
> >>>>>> contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and
> >>>>>> fruit
> >>>>>> instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
> >>>>>> would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
> >>>>>> greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban
> >>>>>> area
> >>>>>> would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term).
> >>>>>> Do I
> >>>>>> wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
> >>>>>> understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor
> >>>>>> would it
> >>>>>> be the preferred way to do
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well
> >>>>>> aware of
> >>>>>> how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
> >>>>>> realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
> >>>>>> gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my
> >>>>>> part
> >>>>>> to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful.
> >>>>>> Meanwhile, I
> >>>>>> garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
> >>>>>> balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?
> >>>>>> There
> >>>>>> is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists 
who
> >>>>>> haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their
> >>>>>> lawns
> >>>>>> into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the
> >>>>>> work
> >>>>>> that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
> >>>>>> gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the
> >>>>>> principles
> >>>>>> of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of
> >>>>>> farming.?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing
> >>>>>>> things
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell
> >>>>>> them -
> >>>>>> "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years.
> >>>>>> Be
> >>>>>> sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> >>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> >>>>>>> completely.?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> >>>>>>>> was a
> >>>>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
> >>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
> >>>>>>>> the PC
> >>>>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> >>>>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such 
as
> >>>>>>>> every
> >>>>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> >>>>>>>> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
> >>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
> >>>>>>>> to me
> >>>>>>>> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
> >>>>>>>> she
> >>>>>>>> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked 
untidy.
> >>>>>>>> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
> >>>>>>>> peak
> >>>>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> >>>>>>>> suspect
> >>>>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> >>>>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> >>>>>>>> together.?
> >>>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> >>>>>>>> minutes 37 seconds. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the
> >>>>>>>> article
> >>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people 
have
> >>>>>>>> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and 
questioned
> >>>>>>>> where the "permaculture " was?
> >>>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> >>>>>>>> permaculture
> >>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> >>>>>>>> encompasses
> >>>>>>>> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
> >>>>>>>> on many
> >>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> >>>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> >>>>>>>> not how
> >>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >>>>>>>> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
> >>>>>>>> help
> >>>>>>>> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
> >>>>>>>> to live
> >>>>>>>> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
> >>>>>>>> includes a
> >>>>>>>> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally 
a
> >>>>>>>> mix.
> >>>>>>>> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> >>>>>>>> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
> >>>>>>>> includes
> >>>>>>>> time management, succession planning, resource 
conservation,
> >>>>>>>> and a
> >>>>>>>> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
> >>>>>>>> article
> >>>>>>>> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
> >>>>>>>> an open
> >>>>>>>> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
> >>>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>>> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
> >>>>>>>> decades, and
> >>>>>>>> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
> >>>>>>>> Bill
> >>>>>>>> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
> >>>>>>>> confuse
> >>>>>>>> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
> >>>>>>>> presentation by
> >>>>>>>> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
> >>>>>>>> novices? of
> >>>>>>>> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
> >>>>>>>> taught
> >>>>>>>> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did 
not
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
> >>>>>>>> 1981
> >>>>>>>> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. 
He
> >>>>>>>> wrote
> >>>>>>>> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he 
signed
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> for me. Work indeed!
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
> >>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
> >>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> >>>>>>>> Society
> >>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> >>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read 
though
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
> >>>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>>> in > organic food production... >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the
> >>>>>>>>> "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> >>>>>>>> etc.) >
> >>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> >>>>>>>> also >
> >>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> >>>>>>>> PC >
> >>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> >>>>>>>> one >
> >>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> >>>>>>>> since >
> >>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> >>>>>>>> some >
> >>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> >>>>>>>> realiity as
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> >>>>>>>>> definitly
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> >>>>>>>>> prominent
> >>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think 
nobody in
> >>>>>>>>> thios
> >>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> >>>>>>>>> courses"),
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
> >>>>>>>> ground", >
> >>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> >>>>>>>> systems,
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> >>>>>>>>> evolve >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> >>>>>>>> imaginative >
> >>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Holger
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> escribi?:
> >>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-perma
> >>>>>>>> culture
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> >>>>>>>>>> uninformed
> >>>>>>>>>> are up to
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
> >>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
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> >>>>>>>>>