permaculture

[Kevin Topek <ktopek@att.net>]

I'm going to agree with Toby on this issue of productivity. I have an  
urban garden on the Texas Gulf Coast that produces a fair bit of  
citrus with some stone & pome fruits too. Vegetables are far more  
productive in the long run. My predation issues on nuts are extreme  
and that also goes for stone & pome fruits and especially papayas. The  
urban garden predators here are squirrels, rats, raccoons & opossums.  
The citrus is usually left alone, except the raccoons will eat the  
mandarins that are easy to peel. Tree canopy encourages predation by  
tree climbing/dwelling species. It is a difficult task to get fruit to  
the point of harvest. Gotta pick the papayas early!

Kevin Topek
www.permaculturedesign.net



On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:00 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

> Food forests need inputs, too. Most of the food forests I've  
> seen--20 or 30 at this point--provide fruit and berries for part of  
> the year, with potential for freezing and drying (energy inputs) to  
> extend the fruit harvest, and a few yield modest amounts of nuts for  
> their owners. At this point, few of them are old enough (10-15  
> years) to yield many nuts, and animal competition for nuts is a huge  
> problem. Some of them supply greens, but most of them are beset with  
> huge insect and fungal problems from too-high plant density and  
> moisture levels. You can run chickens in them to eat bugs, but the  
> chickens eat the food plants, too.
>
> Food forests require large inputs of mulch, as Darrell says-- the  
> very small one at my rental property gets several yards each year-- 
> and don't yet supply many calories. You can't live on fruit.  In  
> theory, food forests could do better, but in practice they seem damn  
> hard to manage, and provide trivial amounts of food. Everyone I know  
> with a food forest gets their calories from annual grains, tubers,  
> squashes, beans, and other non-food forest plants, just like  
> everyone else. Very few people get most of their calories from nuts.  
> I keep hearing (and used to say myself) that food forests are the  
> way to grow lots of food, but I'm not seeing it happening. Lots of  
> theory and "this is such a great idea that it's got to work!" with  
> no real data or experience, and very few calories actually coming  
> out of food forests. And plenty of inputs going in.
>
> It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must  
> provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need  
> inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient  
> extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply  
> love the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial  
> producers of dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at  
> this point.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> > Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export  
> > vegetables and
> > thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could  
> > be used
> > for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle  
> > under
> > it's own power.
> > For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed  
> > system. They
> > would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they  
> > would
> > return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers.  
> > Unthinkable
> > now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil  
> > you run
> > into serious problems after about 20 years.
> > John
> >
> > > well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
> > > there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I  
> > > have
> > > seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some  
> > > ideal
> > > dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy  
> > > equations,
> > > that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground for
> > > disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a profession
> > > that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
> > > disuss it.
> > > When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
> > > with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at  
> > > the
> > > time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of  
> > > Permacuture
> > > Market Gardening.
> > >
> > > Darrell
> > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > www.bioshelter.com
> > >
> > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > Publishing, 2011
> > >
> > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
> > > <april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> > > Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
> > > > but they are not the permaculture message.
> > > > Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
> > > > constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
> > > > as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient  
> > > > cycle,
> > > > so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
> > > > permaculture it muddies the message.
> > > > When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and organic
> > > > matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
> > > > management.
> > > >
> > > > When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every  
> > > > second
> > > > weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
> > > > we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
> > > > So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the  
> > > > reduced
> > > > work load is clear here.
> > > > http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
> > > >
> > > > -- *April S-Kelly*
> > > > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > > > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526  
> > > > Australia
> > > > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > > > Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> > > > We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > > > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > > > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > > > old-fashioned paper.*
> > > >
> > > > On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > >
> > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > > > >
> > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more  
> > > > > specific
> > > > > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Today's Topics:
> > > > >
> > > > >   1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > >   2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > >   3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
> > > > >      Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
> > > > >   4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
> > > > >   5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher  
> > > > > nesbitt)
> > > > >   6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > >   7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 1
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > <holger@tierramor.org>
> > > > > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have  
> > > > > visited
> > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture  
> > > > > Design,
> > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the  
> > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > was?
> > > > >  I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach  
> > > > > permaculture
> > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture  
> > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is  
> > > > > not how
> > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting  
> > > > > from
> > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may  
> > > > > mulch,
> > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,  
> > > > > and
> > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to  
> > > > > achieve the
> > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read  
> > > > > such self
> > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > experience .
> > > > >
> > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real  
> > > > > advice.
> > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think  
> > > > > he, or
> > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield  
> > > > > with no
> > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that  
> > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day  
> > > > > at my
> > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.  
> > > > > "Great
> > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though  
> > > > > > some of
> > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience  
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/  
> > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been  
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in  
> > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but  
> > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one  
> > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in  
> > > > > > thios
> > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad  
> > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing  
> > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Holger
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
> > > > > > toward
> > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 2
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > <holger@tierramor.org>
> > > > > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have  
> > > > > visited
> > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture  
> > > > > Design,
> > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the  
> > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > was?
> > > > >  I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach  
> > > > > permaculture
> > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture  
> > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is  
> > > > > not how
> > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting  
> > > > > from
> > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may  
> > > > > mulch,
> > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,  
> > > > > and
> > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to  
> > > > > achieve the
> > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read  
> > > > > such self
> > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > experience .
> > > > >
> > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real  
> > > > > advice.
> > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think  
> > > > > he, or
> > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield  
> > > > > with no
> > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that  
> > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day  
> > > > > at my
> > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.  
> > > > > "Great
> > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though  
> > > > > > some of
> > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience  
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/  
> > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been  
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in  
> > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but  
> > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one  
> > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in  
> > > > > > thios
> > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad  
> > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing  
> > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Holger
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
> > > > > > toward
> > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 3
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> > > > > From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > > > > Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
> > > > > Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> > > > >
> > > > > New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature
> > > > > Connection,
> > > > > and Natural Health
> > > > >
> > > > > by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> > > > >
> > > > > in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>,  
> > > > > Climate
> > > > > Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> > > > > consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/ 
> > > > > >,
> > > > > Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth  
> > > > > Ways'
> > > > > Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> > > > > Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> > > > > Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> > > > > evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>,  
> > > > > Forest
> > > > > Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> > > > > Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>,  
> > > > > Natural
> > > > > Pest
> > > > > Control
> > > > <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>,  
> > > > Nature
> > > > > Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/ 
> > > > > >,
> > > > > News
> > > > > & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> > > > > Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> > > > > Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>,
> > > > > Survival
> > > > > Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> > > > > Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> > > > > Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> > > > > Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> > > > >
> > > > > July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness,  
> > > > > Highland,
> > > > > Scotland.
> > > > >
> > > > > This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
> > > > > combination.
> > > > > It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways has
> > > > > developed over the years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete  
> > > > > when
> > > > > people
> > > > > are as healthy as they can be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on nature.
> > > > > Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an essential
> > > > > first
> > > > > step.
> > > > >
> > > > > I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high  
> > > > > standards.
> > > > > Even  better than the last one with our new addition to our crew:
> > > > > Klaudia
> > > > > van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and  
> > > > > Georgina
> > > > > Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at Anam
> > > > > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
> > > > >
> > > > > Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
> > > > > Permaculture
> > > > > Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to  
> > > > > nature
> > > > > and
> > > > > learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina  
> > > > > Richardson. She
> > > > > is a
> > > > > natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a  
> > > > > permaculture
> > > > > diet?
> > > > > and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to  
> > > > > experience how
> > > > > our
> > > > > body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for  
> > > > > the
> > > > > planet
> > > > > AND good for us!
> > > > > You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
> > > > > relaxing
> > > > > and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover  
> > > > > the
> > > > > magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
> > > > >
> > > > > The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will be
> > > > > upheld by
> > > > > the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of  
> > > > > Nature
> > > > > Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> > > > > Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
> > > > >
> > > > > We?d love you to join us.
> > > > >
> > > > > More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> > > > > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> > > > >
> > > > > or here:
> > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/ 
> > > > >
> > > > > <>
> > > > > FAQ
> > > > >
> > > > > *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> > > > >
> > > > > If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so
> > > > > wonderful,
> > > > > please read on:
> > > > >
> > > > >   - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and unusual
> > > > > yet
> > > > >   effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
> > > > lifting the
> > > > >   level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
> > > > Please check out
> > > > >   the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
> > > > share with
> > > > >   you.
> > > > >   - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
> > > > > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
> > > > >   surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us
> > > > > excellent
> > > > >   nature observation opportunities.
> > > > >   - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life  
> > > > > can
> > > > > be
> > > > >   like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
> > > > balanced diet
> > > > >   one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give  
> > > > > you
> > > > > the
> > > > >   tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
> > > > >   - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
> > > > >   permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
> > > > how to change
> > > > >   an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
> > > > permaculture
> > > > >   principles you?ll learn.
> > > > >   - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a  
> > > > > wide
> > > > >   variety of expertise available from the teachers.
> > > > >   - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours  
> > > > > tuition
> > > > >   required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional
> > > > > learning
> > > > >   opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
> > > > experience.
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 4
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you  
> > > > > completely.?
> > > > >
> > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it  
> > > > > was a
> > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know  
> > > > how
> > > > to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as  
> > > > every
> > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > forest).
> > > > > I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me  
> > > > and
> > > > his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was
> > > > complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps
> > > > it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal  
> > > > together.?
> > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > minutes 37 seconds.
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have  
> > > > > visited
> > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture  
> > > > > Design,
> > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the  
> > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > was?
> > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach  
> > > > > permaculture
> > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture  
> > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is  
> > > > > not how
> > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting  
> > > > > from
> > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may  
> > > > > mulch,
> > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,  
> > > > > and
> > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to  
> > > > > achieve the
> > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read  
> > > > > such self
> > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > experience .
> > > > >
> > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real  
> > > > > advice.
> > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think  
> > > > > he, or
> > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield  
> > > > > with no
> > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that  
> > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day  
> > > > > at my
> > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.  
> > > > > "Great
> > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though  
> > > > > > some of
> > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience  
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/  
> > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been  
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in  
> > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but  
> > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one  
> > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in  
> > > > > > thios
> > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad  
> > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing  
> > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Holger
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
> > > > > > toward
> > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/ 
> > > > > permaculture/
> > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 5
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> > > > > From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> > > > > Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
> > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> > > > >
> > > > > This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
> > > > been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of  
> > > > the
> > > > oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC  
> > > > with
> > > > great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
> > > > > 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd,
> > > > 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> > > > > Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
> > > > >
> > > > > Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
> > > > Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
> > > > > Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
> > > > course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the
> > > > farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of  
> > > > the
> > > > course.
> > > > > For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
> > > > info(a)mmrfbz.org.
> > > > > Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands  
> > > > > on
> > > > experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable,
> > > > ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked
> > > > into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from  
> > > > the
> > > > village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
> > > > Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO  
> > > > that
> > > > promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
> > > > security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.
> > > > > With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
> > > > abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
> > > > Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
> > > > chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this venue. A
> > > > fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010  
> > > > PDC
> > > > on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.
> > > > > Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
> > > > artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law,  
> > > > and
> > > > produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
> > > > Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation  
> > > > of
> > > > the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities and
> > > > government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
> > > > infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He has
> > > > been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
> > > > > Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
> > > > teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
> > > > specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology,
> > > > and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
> > > > living and working in both urban and rural locations. She currently
> > > > teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
> > > > University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
> > > > Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
> > > > Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center,
> > > > Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds  
> > > > an
> > > > advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has  
> > > > participated in
> > > > permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
> > > > Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of Haiti.
> > > > She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
> > > > > Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture
> > > > website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been
> > > > chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as  
> > > > the
> > > > most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament. The
> > > > site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology,  
> > > > population
> > > > and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a  
> > > > state
> > > > of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
> > > > international speaker on energy and global finance. She has  
> > > > lectured
> > > > in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia  
> > > > and
> > > > New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
> > > > countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
> > > > permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
> > > > Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole  
> > > > was
> > > > Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
> > > > finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
> > > > on
> > > > >  of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
> > > > grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
> > > > development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at  
> > > > the
> > > > Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in  
> > > > nuclear
> > > > safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted
> > > > research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
> > > > significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
> > > > consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology  
> > > > from
> > > > Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
> > > > neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
> > > > water pollution control, the common professional examination in law
> > > > and an LLM in international law in development from the  
> > > > University of
> > > > Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top
> > > > science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
> > > > school graduate in 1997.
> > > > > Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
> > > > Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical  
> > > > agroforestry
> > > > and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
> > > > since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
> > > > permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
> > > > elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
> > > > chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
> > > > certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
> > > > founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
> > > > worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
> > > > Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He  
> > > > represented
> > > > Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala.
> > > > He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
> > > > protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps,  
> > > > and
> > > > teaches agroforestry.
> > > > > A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered
> > > > by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
> > > > Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
> > > > agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
> > > > Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two  
> > > > boys,
> > > > Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants  
> > > > must
> > > > be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
> > > > communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a farmer,
> > > > extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
> > > > Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing,  
> > > > and
> > > > a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in  
> > > > this
> > > > course.
> > > > > *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must
> > > > be paid by the students.
> > > > > _____________________________
> > > > > Christopher Nesbitt
> > > > >
> > > > > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > > > > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > > > > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > > > > BELIZE,
> > > > > Central America
> > > > >
> > > > > Country code 501-630-4386
> > > > >
> > > > > www.mmrfbz.org
> > > > > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 6
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael  
> > > > > Pilarski
> > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > > > > Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you  
> > > > > completely.?
> > > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it  
> > > > > > was a
> > > > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> > > > > > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > > > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as  
> > > > > > every
> > > > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > > > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of  
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> > > > > > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what  
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> > > > > > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> > > > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I  
> > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal  
> > > > > > together.?
> > > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > > > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > > > > > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > > > > > where the "permaculture " was?
> > > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach  
> > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture  
> > > > > > encompasses
> > > > > > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws  
> > > > > > on many
> > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with  
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is  
> > > > > > not how
> > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I  
> > > > > > help
> > > > > > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals  
> > > > > > to live
> > > > > > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that  
> > > > > > includes a
> > > > > > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a  
> > > > > > mix.
> > > > > > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> > > > > > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> > > > > > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also  
> > > > > > includes
> > > > > > time management, succession planning, resource conservation,  
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the  
> > > > > > article
> > > > > > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with  
> > > > > > an open
> > > > > > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The  
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by  
> > > > > > decades, and
> > > > > > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> > > > > > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not  
> > > > > > confuse
> > > > > > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such  
> > > > > > presentation by
> > > > > > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by  
> > > > > > novices? of
> > > > > > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> > > > > > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not  
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in  
> > > > > > 1981
> > > > > > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He  
> > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed  
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New  
> > > > > > Society
> > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though  
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable  
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > in > organic food production... >
> > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/  
> > > > > > etc.) >
> > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but  
> > > > > > also >
> > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic  
> > > > > > PC >
> > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been  
> > > > > > one >
> > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,  
> > > > > > since >
> > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish  
> > > > > > some >
> > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in  
> > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but  
> > > > > > > definitly
> > > > > > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one  
> > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in  
> > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad  
> > > > > > > courses"),
> > > > > > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing  
> > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and  
> > > > > > > evolve >
> > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the  
> > > > > > imaginative >
> > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
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> > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
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> > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration  
> > > > > > and >
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
> > > > > > toward
> > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation  
> > > > > > toward
> > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 7
> > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > >
> > > > > I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems
> > > > to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
> > > > permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
> > > > balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I
> > > > do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
> > > > assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need to
> > > > document our results and am happy that activity is increasing. But
> > > > I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I  
> > > > get
> > > > such huge yields in the first year with little work from some small
> > > > plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
> > > > hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical
> > > > vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce
> > > > and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
> > > > attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my
> > > > fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
> > > > > my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
> > > > accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy  
> > > > net
> > > > profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
> > > > "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand,  
> > > > til I
> > > > transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban  
> > > > plots
> > > > contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals and
> > > > chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and fruit
> > > > instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
> > > > would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I  
> > > > can
> > > > buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
> > > > greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban  
> > > > area
> > > > would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term).  
> > > > Do I
> > > > wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
> > > > understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor would it
> > > > be the preferred way to do
> > > > > commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think
> > > > that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of
> > > > how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
> > > > realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
> > > > gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my  
> > > > part
> > > > to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful.  
> > > > Meanwhile, I
> > > > garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
> > > > balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
> > > > > There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
> > > > foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ? 
> > > > There
> > > > is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
> > > > haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their  
> > > > lawns
> > > > into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How  
> > > > can
> > > > that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the work
> > > > that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
> > > > gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the  
> > > > principles
> > > > of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of  
> > > > farming.?
> > > > > Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things
> > > > too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell  
> > > > them -
> > > > "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be
> > > > sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > > > >
> > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you  
> > > > > completely.?
> > > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it  
> > > > > > was a
> > > > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> > > > > > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > > > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as  
> > > > > > every
> > > > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > > > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of  
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> > > > > > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what  
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> > > > > > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> > > > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I  
> > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal  
> > > > > > together.?
> > > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > > > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > > > > > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > > > > > where the "permaculture " was?
> > > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach  
> > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture  
> > > > > > encompasses
> > > > > > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws  
> > > > > > on many
> > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with  
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is  
> > > > > > not how
> > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I  
> > > > > > help
> > > > > > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals  
> > > > > > to live
> > > > > > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that  
> > > > > > includes a
> > > > > > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a  
> > > > > > mix.
> > > > > > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> > > > > > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> > > > > > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also  
> > > > > > includes
> > > > > > time management, succession planning, resource conservation,  
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the  
> > > > > > article
> > > > > > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with  
> > > > > > an open
> > > > > > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The  
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by  
> > > > > > decades, and
> > > > > > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> > > > > > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not  
> > > > > > confuse
> > > > > > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such  
> > > > > > presentation by
> > > > > > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by  
> > > > > > novices? of
> > > > > > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> > > > > > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not  
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in  
> > > > > > 1981
> > > > > > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He  
> > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed  
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New  
> > > > > > Society
> > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though  
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable  
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > in > organic food production... >
> > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/  
> > > > > > etc.) >
> > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but  
> > > > > > also >
> > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic  
> > > > > > PC >
> > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been  
> > > > > > one >
> > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,  
> > > > > > since >
> > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish  
> > > > > > some >
> > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in  
> > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but  
> > > > > > > definitly
> > > > > > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one  
> > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in  
> > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad  
> > > > > > > courses"),
> > > > > > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing  
> > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and  
> > > > > > > evolve >
> > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the  
> > > > > > imaginative >
> > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
> > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration  
> > > > > > and >
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of  
> > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > permaculture/
> > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
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> > > > > permaculture/
> > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> > > > > *********************************************
> > > >
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> > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >
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> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with  
> > > integrated
> > > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > > nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
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> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech  
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with  
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and  
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech  
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with  
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and  
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat