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  • From: Kevin Topek <ktopek@att.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Market Gardening is NOT Permaculture.
  • Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:21:49 -0600

I'm going to agree with Toby on this issue of productivity. I have an urban garden on the Texas Gulf Coast that produces a fair bit of citrus with some stone & pome fruits too. Vegetables are far more productive in the long run. My predation issues on nuts are extreme and that also goes for stone & pome fruits and especially papayas. The urban garden predators here are squirrels, rats, raccoons & opossums. The citrus is usually left alone, except the raccoons will eat the mandarins that are easy to peel. Tree canopy encourages predation by tree climbing/dwelling species. It is a difficult task to get fruit to the point of harvest. Gotta pick the papayas early!

Kevin Topek
www.permaculturedesign.net



On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:00 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

Food forests need inputs, too. Most of the food forests I've seen--20 or 30 at this point--provide fruit and berries for part of the year, with potential for freezing and drying (energy inputs) to extend the fruit harvest, and a few yield modest amounts of nuts for their owners. At this point, few of them are old enough (10-15 years) to yield many nuts, and animal competition for nuts is a huge problem. Some of them supply greens, but most of them are beset with huge insect and fungal problems from too-high plant density and moisture levels. You can run chickens in them to eat bugs, but the chickens eat the food plants, too.

Food forests require large inputs of mulch, as Darrell says-- the very small one at my rental property gets several yards each year-- and don't yet supply many calories. You can't live on fruit. In theory, food forests could do better, but in practice they seem damn hard to manage, and provide trivial amounts of food. Everyone I know with a food forest gets their calories from annual grains, tubers, squashes, beans, and other non-food forest plants, just like everyone else. Very few people get most of their calories from nuts. I keep hearing (and used to say myself) that food forests are the way to grow lots of food, but I'm not seeing it happening. Lots of theory and "this is such a great idea that it's got to work!" with no real data or experience, and very few calories actually coming out of food forests. And plenty of inputs going in.

It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply love the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial producers of dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at this point.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:


Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export vegetables and
thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could be used
for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle under
it's own power.
For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed system. They
would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they would
return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers. Unthinkable
now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil you run
into serious problems after about 20 years.
John

well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I have
seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some ideal
dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy equations,
that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground for
disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a profession
that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
disuss it.
When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at the
time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of Permacuture
Market Gardening.

Darrell
Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
<april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
but they are not the permaculture message.
Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient cycle,
so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
permaculture it muddies the message.
When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and organic
matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
management.

When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every second
weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the reduced
work load is clear here.
http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/

-- *April S-Kelly*
Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia
Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
<http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
*Please consider your environment before printing this email on
old-fashioned paper.*

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher nesbitt)
6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org>
Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
was?
I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
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pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org>
Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
was?
I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/

New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature
Connection,
and Natural Health

by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013

in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>, Climate
Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/ >,
Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth Ways'
Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>, Forest
Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>, Natural
Pest
Control
<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>, Nature
Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/ >,
News
& Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>,
Survival
Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>

July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM 2014. Anam Cara, Inverness, Highland,
Scotland.

This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
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Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an essential
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I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high standards.
Even better than the last one with our new addition to our crew:
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van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and Georgina
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Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.

Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
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Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to nature
and
learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina Richardson. She
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and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to experience how
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AND good for us!
You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
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or here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/ >

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?

I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know how
to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest).

I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me and
his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was
complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps
it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?

here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design .
As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
yields the client seeks.

So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
experience .

? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
organic food production...

Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.

Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
power of PC concepts get grounded.

saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture

a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/ permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of the
oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC with
great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.


9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd,
2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014

Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE

Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.

Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the
farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of the
course.

For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
info(a)mmrfbz.org.

Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands on
experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable,
ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked
into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from the
village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO that
promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.

With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this venue. A
fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010 PDC
on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.

Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law, and
produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation of
the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities and
government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He has
been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.

Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology,
and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
living and working in both urban and rural locations. She currently
teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center,
Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds an
advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has participated in
permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of Haiti.
She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.

Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture
website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been
chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as the
most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament. The
site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology, population
and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a state
of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
international speaker on energy and global finance. She has lectured
in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia and
New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole was
Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
on
of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at the
Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in nuclear
safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted
research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology from
Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
water pollution control, the common professional examination in law
and an LLM in international law in development from the University of
Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top
science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
school graduate in 1997.

Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical agroforestry
and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He represented
Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala.
He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps, and
teaches agroforestry.

A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered
by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two boys,
Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants must
be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a farmer,
extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing, and
a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in this
course.

*Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must
be paid by the students.





_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm






------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
where the "permaculture " was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in > organic food production... >
Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
power of PC concepts get grounded. >
saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
list maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems
to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I
do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need to
document our results and am happy that activity is increasing. But
I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I get
such huge yields in the first year with little work from some small
plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical
vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce
and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my
fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy net
profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
"wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand, til I
transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban plots
contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals and
chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and fruit
instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I can
buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban area
would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term). Do I
wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor would it
be the preferred way to do
commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think
that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of
how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my part
to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful. Meanwhile, I
garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?

There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ? There
is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their lawns
into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How can
that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the work
that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the principles
of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of farming.?

Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things
too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell them -
"I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be
sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
?
?



On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

?
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
where the "permaculture " was?
? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
critical with some expressions of PC-
the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in > organic food production... >
Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
power of PC concepts get grounded. >
saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)

Holger


El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
The Trouble with Permaculture

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
uninformed
are up to
-- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
www.tierramor.org
Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
Consultas y asesor?as
Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human habitat

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How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
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https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human habitat





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