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  • From: "Darrell E. Frey" <defrey@bioshelter.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
  • Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500

Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,  thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely. 

I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
bad article at all.  She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
how to garden, and rightly so.  She poked at some holes in the PC
ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.  We should all be alert for
dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
Feingold's pc garden in the UK.  Mike's pc site looked good to me
and his gardening . His dialogue was good.  I am not sure what she
was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
productivity.  But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
the cost/yield ratio was good.  I am perhaps biased since Mike
Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together. 
here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M


Michael Pilarski

 
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
<defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques  and questioned
where the "permaculture " was?
  I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
as a design system applied land, buildings,  businesses, farms,
schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
different gardens.  Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
comes from people short on experience .   A deep reading of Bill
Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices  of
permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
for me. Work indeed!

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
<holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> critical with some expressions of PC-
> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
in > organic food production... >
> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
after my first PDC back in 1996....and I´m happy for that, since >
this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>
> Holger
>
>
> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribió:
> > The Trouble with Permaculture
> >
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >
> > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> > are up to
>
> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> TIERRAMOR - Diseño Integrado
> www.tierramor.org
> Diseño de sistemas ecológicos
> Consultas y asesorías
> Facilitación de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
enhanced nature-compatible human habitat





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