permaculture

["Darrell E. Frey" <defrey@bioshelter.com>]

Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
<friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
Darrell,  thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely. 
> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> bad article at all.  She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> how to garden, and rightly so.  She poked at some holes in the PC
> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.  We should all be alert for
> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.  Mike's pc site looked good to me
> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.  I am not sure what she
> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> productivity.  But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> the cost/yield ratio was good.  I am perhaps biased since Mike
> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together. 
> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
>
>
> Michael Pilarski
>
>  
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>  I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques  and questioned
> where the "permaculture " was?
>   I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> as a design system applied land, buildings,  businesses, farms,
> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> different gardens.  Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
> comes from people short on experience .   A deep reading of Bill
> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices  of
> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
> for me. Work indeed!
>
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
>
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> Publishing, 2011
>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> in > organic food production... >
> > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I´m happy for that, since >
> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >
> > Holger
> >
> >
> > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribió:
> > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >
> > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> > > are up to
> >
> > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > TIERRAMOR - Diseño Integrado
> > www.tierramor.org
> > Diseño de sistemas ecológicos
> > Consultas y asesorías
> > Facilitación de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat