permaculture

["Darrell E. Frey" <defrey@bioshelter.com>]

well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I have
seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some ideal
dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy equations,
that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground for
disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a profession
that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
disuss it.
 When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at the
time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of Permacuture
Market Gardening.

Darrell
Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
<april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
> but they are not the permaculture message.
> Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
> constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
> as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient cycle,
> so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
> permaculture it muddies the message.
> When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and organic
> matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
> management.
>
> When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every second
> weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
> we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
> So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the reduced
> work load is clear here.
> http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
>
> -- *April S-Kelly*
> Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia
> Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> old-fashioned paper.*
>
> On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> >  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >     1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >     2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >     3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
> >        Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
> >     4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
> >     5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher nesbitt)
> >     6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> >     7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> >  <holger@tierramor.org>
> > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >
> > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > was?
> >    I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > permaculture design .
> > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > yields the client seeks.
> >
> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > experience .
> >
> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> >> organic food production...
> >>
> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>
> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> >> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>
> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>
> >> Holger
> >>
> >>
> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >>>
> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> >>> are up to
> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >> www.tierramor.org
> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> >  <holger@tierramor.org>
> > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >
> > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > was?
> >    I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > permaculture design .
> > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > yields the client seeks.
> >
> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > experience .
> >
> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> >> organic food production...
> >>
> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>
> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> >> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>
> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>
> >> Holger
> >>
> >>
> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >>>
> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> >>> are up to
> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >> www.tierramor.org
> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> > From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
> >  Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >  <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> >
> > New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature Connection,
> > and Natural Health
> >
> > by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> >
> > in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>, Climate
> > Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> > consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/>,
> > Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth Ways'
> > Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> > Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> > Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> > evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>, Forest
> > Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> > Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>, Natural Pest
> > Control
> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>, Nature
> > Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/>, News
> > & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> > Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> > Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>, Survival
> > Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> > Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> > Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> > Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> >
> > July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness, Highland,
> > Scotland.
> >
> > This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new combination.
> > It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways has
> > developed over the years.
> >
> > Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete when people
> > are as healthy as they can be.
> >
> > Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on nature.
> > Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an essential first
> > step.
> >
> > I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high standards.
> > Even  better than the last one with our new addition to our crew: Klaudia
> > van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and Georgina
> > Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at Anam
> > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
> >
> > Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of Permaculture
> > Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to nature and
> > learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina Richardson. She is a
> > natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a permaculture diet?
> > and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to experience how our
> > body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for the planet
> > AND good for us!
> > You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging, relaxing
> > and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover the
> > magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
> >
> > The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will be upheld by
> > the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of Nature
> > Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
> >
> > Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> > Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
> >
> > We?d love you to join us.
> >
> > More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> >
> > or here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/>
> >
> > <>
> > FAQ
> >
> > *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> >
> > If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so wonderful,
> > please read on:
> >
> >     - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and unusual yet
> >     effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
> lifting the
> >     level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
> Please check out
> >     the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
> share with
> >     you.
> >     - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
> > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
> >     surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us excellent
> >     nature observation opportunities.
> >     - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life can be
> >     like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
> balanced diet
> >     one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give you the
> >     tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
> >     - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
> >     permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
> how to change
> >     an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
> permaculture
> >     principles you?ll learn.
> >     - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a wide
> >     variety of expertise available from the teachers.
> >     - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours tuition
> >     required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional learning
> >     opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
> experience.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >  <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> >
> > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know how
> to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> forest).
> >
> > I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me and
> his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was
> complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps
> it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> >
> > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> minutes 37 seconds.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >
> >
> > Michael Pilarski
> >
> > ?
> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >
> >
> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >   > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design,
> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > was?
> > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > permaculture design .
> > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > yields the client seeks.
> >
> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self
> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > experience .
> >
> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> >> organic food production...
> >>
> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> >>
> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> >> power of PC concepts get grounded.
> >>
> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>
> >> Holger
> >>
> >>
> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >>>
> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> >>> are up to
> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >> www.tierramor.org
> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> > From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> > Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> >   This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
> been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of the
> oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC with
> great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
> >
> >
> > 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd,
> 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> >
> > Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
> >
> > Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
> Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
> >
> > Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
> course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the
> farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of the
> course.
> >
> > For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
> info(a)mmrfbz.org.
> >
> > Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands on
> experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable,
> ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked
> into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from the
> village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
> Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO that
> promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
> security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.
> >
> > With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
> abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
> Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
> chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this venue. A
> fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010 PDC
> on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.
> >
> > Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
> artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law, and
> produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
> Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation of
> the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities and
> government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
> infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He has
> been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
> >
> > Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
> teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
> specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology,
> and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
> living and working in both urban and rural locations. She currently
> teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
> University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
> Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
> Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center,
> Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds an
> advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has participated in
> permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
> Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of Haiti.
> She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
> >
> > Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture
> website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been
> chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as the
> most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament. The
> site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology, population
> and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a state
> of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
> international speaker on energy and global finance. She has lectured
> in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia and
> New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
> countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
> permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
> Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole was
> Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
> finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
>  on
> >    of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
> grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
> development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at the
> Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in nuclear
> safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted
> research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
> significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
> consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology from
> Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
> neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
> water pollution control, the common professional examination in law
> and an LLM in international law in development from the University of
> Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top
> science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
> school graduate in 1997.
> >
> > Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
> Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical agroforestry
> and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
> since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
> permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
> elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
> chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
> certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
> founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
> worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
> Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He represented
> Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala.
> He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
> protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps, and
> teaches agroforestry.
> >
> > A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered
> by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
> Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
> agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
> Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two boys,
> Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants must
> be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
> communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a farmer,
> extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
> Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing, and
> a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in this
> course.
> >
> > *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must
> be paid by the students.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________________
> > Christopher Nesbitt
> >
> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > BELIZE,
> > Central America
> >
> > Country code 501-630-4386
> >
> > www.mmrfbz.org
> > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael Pilarski
> >  <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> >
> > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> >> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> >> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> >> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> >> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> >> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> >> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> >> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> >> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> >> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> >> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> >> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> >> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> >> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> >> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> >> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> >> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Pilarski
> >>
> >> ?
> >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >>
> >>
> >> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> >> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> >> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >>   I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> >> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> >> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> >> where the "permaculture " was?
> >> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> >> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> >> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
> >> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> >> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> >> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> >> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
> >> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
> >> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
> >> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
> >> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> >> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> >> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
> >> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
> >> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
> >> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
> >> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
> >> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
> >> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> >> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
> >> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
> >> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
> >> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> >> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
> >> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
> >> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
> >> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
> >> for me. Work indeed!
> >>
> >> Darrell E. Frey
> >> Three Sisters Farm
> >> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >> www.bioshelter.com
> >>
> >> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> >> Publishing, 2011
> >>
> >> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> >>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
> >> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> >> in > organic food production... >
> >>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> >>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
> >> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> >>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> >>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> >>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
> >> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> >>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> >>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>
> >>> Holger
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> >>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>
> >> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> >>>> are up to
> >>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>> www.tierramor.org
> >>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >>> list maintenance:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>> Google message archive search:
> >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >  <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems
> to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
> permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
> balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I
> do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
> assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need to
> document our results and am happy that activity is increasing. But
> I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I get
> such huge yields in the first year with little work from some small
> plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
> hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical
> vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce
> and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
> attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my
> fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
> >   my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
> accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy net
> profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
> "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand, til I
> transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban plots
> contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals and
> chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and fruit
> instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
> would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I can
> buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
> greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban area
> would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term). Do I
> wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
> understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor would it
> be the preferred way to do
> >   commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think
> that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of
> how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
> realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
> gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my part
> to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful. Meanwhile, I
> garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
> balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
> >
> > There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
> foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?There
> is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
> haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their lawns
> into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How can
> that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the work
> that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
> gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the principles
> of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of farming.?
> >
> > Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things
> too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell them -
> "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be
> sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> > ?
> > ?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >   > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> >> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> >> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> >> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> >> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> >> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> >> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> >> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> >> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> >> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> >> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> >> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> >> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> >> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> >> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> >> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> >> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Pilarski
> >>
> >> ?
> >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >>
> >>
> >> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> >> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> >> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >> ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> >> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> >> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> >> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> >> where the "permaculture " was?
> >> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> >> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> >> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> >> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
> >> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> >> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> >> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> >> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> >> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
> >> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
> >> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
> >> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
> >> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> >> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> >> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
> >> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
> >> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
> >> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
> >> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
> >> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
> >> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> >> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
> >> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
> >> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
> >> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> >> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
> >> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
> >> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
> >> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
> >> for me. Work indeed!
> >>
> >> Darrell E. Frey
> >> Three Sisters Farm
> >> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >> www.bioshelter.com
> >>
> >> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> >> Publishing, 2011
> >>
> >> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> >> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> >>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> >>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
> >> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> >> in > organic food production... >
> >>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> >>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
> >> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> >>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> >>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> >>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
> >> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> >>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> >>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >>>
> >>> Holger
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> >>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> >>>>
> >> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> >>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> >>>> are up to
> >>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> >>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>> www.tierramor.org
> >>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>
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> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >>
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> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
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> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
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> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
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> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
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> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> > *********************************************
> >
>
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat