permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

These are all fantastic ideas. We do have some inexpensive elm available via 
the NRD. Question, has anybody worked with honey locust in drylands? I love 
that tree, very useful and it has a good taproot, but it hasn't taken off and 
I'd like to see how I could assist it. 
 



________________________________
 From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

Koreen,
I noticed on the Navajo and Hopi lands, very harsh high desert with extreme
wind, the only deciduous tree that grew in extremely degraded areas is the
Siberian Elm. I'd stare in wonder as I passed by abandoned rest stops or
burnt out homes at how the ugly elm with it's dead lower limbs and
sandblasted understory persisted.

There are not a lot of fans of this tree out there, but I have recommended
planting it on the windswept Colorado Plateau because of it's usefulness as
firewood and coppice abilities. Many people drive up in the hills to cut
Juniper, when they could have multiple windbreaks of Ulmus pumila cut on
multi-year rotation for fuel near their homes. It's not an exceptional
firewood, but it's decent, I've burned it plenty. You can plant from the
prolific seed, just rake them into a swale and they will germinate with
abundance. Of course the seed will blow into gardens and act as a weed in
cultivated areas. But windbreaks of Siberian Elm spaced out every 50 feet
will alter the microclimate to get more valuable trees established.

Good luck!
Andrew


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:00 PM, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>wrote:

> Hi Koreen-
>
> You could try to catch some atmospheric moisture to water the trees.  A
> shade cloth shelter on the upwind side will block the wind, offer some
> shade, and also act as a dew fence- if there is any moisture in the wind
> when it blows it will condense on the fabric and drip to wherever you
> direct it.  You can get big rolls of shade cloth for pretty cheap, and can
> use rebar to stake- 3 x 4 ft pieces/ tree.  Alternatively if you can get
> ahold of bamboo that may suffice and be cheaper, but may not hold up in big
> winds.
>
> If you have rocks available they are great mulch.  Stacks of them will
> also condense atmospheric moisture.  There was a thread on them recently-
> air wells. really labor intensive obviously but permanent.
>
> The "waterboxx" is another gadget to catch dew, but their $30/ea price tag
> is a little expensive.  They have an agenda to replant 2 billion hectares
> with their planting technique.  Maybe  they would donate 600 units!?
> http://www.groasis.com/en/summary/summary-of-the-groasis-technology
>
> The idea is surface area catches water, especially if there is a
> temperature gradient like when dew condenses on metal at night because the
> metal is colder than the air.  You could accomplish this on the cheap with
> corrugated roofing or metal sheeting shaped into funnels around the bases
> of trees to direct dew to the roots.
>
> Not sure how realistic any of these would be on the rez.  Of course all
> this also depends on their being moisture in the air.  Maybe try it out on
> a few and see how it goes.
>
> cheers-
> Loren Luyendyk
> 805-452-8249
> Permaculture Design and Education
> ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.globalpermaculture.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.com
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:09:32 -0700
> > From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
> >
> > You have a mustang!  Amazing creatures aren't they?  Thank you much for
> sharing your favorite alnifolias. I think we did actually get a Regent last
> year so now I'll take a good look when I go up. You're growing passion
> flower as an annual? I tried to get seed started up there one year but was
> doing too much else to pay attention, it didn't take off. Does it fruit in
> the season you have, or do you extend with greenhouse?  Yum!
> >
> > Koreen Brennan
> >
> > www.growpermaculture.com
> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
> >
> >
> > Koreen,
> > I here ya on the black locust and toxicity. I've had a mustang for the
> last
> > 8 years and know the sensitivity of the horses gut well. Though mustangs
> > are much hardier than most other breeds.
> >
> > All the Amelanchiers do great in Colorado. I even plant the allegeny
> > species (Eastern deciduous forest native). For fruit quality, of them
> all I
> > like the cultivated alnifolias. It truly depends on the person though. I
> do
> > taste tests with my students and they all choose different once that they
> > like better than the others. Eric Toensmeier and I agree that the
> > cultivated alnifolias are best in taste, so that may say something. I
> also
> > really like 'Regent' which is a stolonifera/alnifolia cross. They do
> better
> > with a little more water though. The wild ones are still worth growing,
> but
> > more for home use. Amelanchiers are truly one of my favorite plants and
> > fruits so I've tried practically every cultivar out there. My favorite
> > being Martin, Northline, Smoky, and Regent, and Autumn Brilliance
> > (allegeny).
> >
> > The linden flowers are best harvested before they start to make fruits,
> > which happens very quickly, so timing is everything. The less fruit
> > development the higher per oz my local herb shop will pay. We dry them,
> > only takes about two days on a screen in the shade. They are used for all
> > kinds of simple calmative reasons. When I lived in France, linden flowers
> > were extremely popular as a soothing tea. It sells faster than most other
> > herbs at my local apothecary (not quite as fast as our annual local
> > passionflower harvest).
> >
> > --
> > Jason Gerhardt
> >
> > PO Box 4355
> > Boulder, CO 80306
> > 303-258-7982
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-- 
Andrew Millison
(541) 752-9118
www.beaverstatepermaculture.com
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>From dwoodard@becon.org  Fri Apr 26 05:26:36 2013
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 Koreen, although South Dakota is a little warmer than most of the
 Canadian Prairies I have been surprised at some of the species
 mentioned, such as honey locust.

 The shelterbelt program on the Canadian Prairies has amassed a lot of
 good information over the years. You may find it useful to have a look
 at

 http://wwww.agr.gc.ca/shelterbelt

 click on "Publications."

 This was part of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration (PFRA).

 Note that our neocon federal government is in the process of trashing
 this program and you should assume that the online and print resources
 will not last beyond 2013.

 You might also look at

 http://www.fruit.usask.ca


 This Canadian nursery may be able to supply U.S. customers. In the past
 they have been wholesale only, but you might qualify due to volume:

 Jeffries Nurseries
 http://www.jeffriesnurseries.com

 Their new "Gemini" apple looks interesting. The farm of the breeder,
 the late Art Coutts, at Unity, Saskatchewan is around the margin of
 Agriculture Canada zones 2a and 2b, a little colder than Saskatoon.

 The Agriculture Canada zones are a little different from the USDA
 zones; search on
 "Agriculture Canada Plant Hardiness Zones."

 A couple of other Canadian prairie nurseries may be useful for
 reference only:

 Alberta Nurseries and Seeds
 http://www.gardenersweb.ca

 Boughen Nurseries Valley River
 http://www.boughennurseries.net


 Probably you are aware of Lawyer Nurseries in Montana:
 http://www.lawyernursery.com


 For vegetable seed sources this may be useful:

 http://www.seeds.ca/rl/rl.php


 The book "Horticultural Horizons" by the late Frank Skinner (nurseryman
 and breeder) although a few decades old may provide some useful
 background.

 I believe Skinner used Siberian Elm at Dropmore, Manitoba in
 Agriculture Canada zone 2.

 St. Lawrence Nurseries at Potsdam, New York has an especially coldhardy
 honey locust and also a bur oak. Potsdam seems to have a somewhat more
 rigourous climate than Ottawa; a little to the south but considerably
 higher.
 http://www.sln/potsdam.ny.us

 Tissue cultured plants are sold to the U.S. by
 http://www.prairietechpropagation.com

 Some additional cultivar information can be found at
 http://www.dnagardens.com

 For the hardier gooseberries and currants, Whitman Farms (USA) has an
 unusually large selection:
 http://whitmanfarms.com

 Doug Woodard
 St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


 On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:53:18 -0700 (PDT), Koreen Brennan
 <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
> These are all fantastic ideas. We do have some inexpensive elm
> available via the NRD. Question, has anybody worked with honey locust
> in drylands? I love that tree, very useful and it has a good taproot,
> but it hasn't taken off and I'd like to see how I could assist it. 
> Â 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
>
>
> Koreen,
> I noticed on the Navajo and Hopi lands, very harsh high desert with
> extreme
> wind, the only deciduous tree that grew in extremely degraded areas
> is the
> Siberian Elm.

 <snip>